Why do the Live Players......
 

...suck so bad? Seriously. I have logged enough hours live and online to make the a decent judgement call here, IMO. I play online for the tournies mostly and live for the cash games and some tournies. So why is it that it seems that live players are so damn terrible? I would think that people who play live would play a bit better. Most players I see are VERY Weak and cant play post flop or deep stacked poker. They seem to have very little understanding of simple concepts beyond pot odds. So why is that live players are so damn terrible? Maybe its who I am seeing more of lately, not sure, but in the past few weeks, only one player has been a real challenge in post flop play. He was a total LAG like me. I'm not complaining, but at the same time, I like a bit of a challenge too.

So once again, why do live players suck so bad?

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

They are there for entertainment. Poker for them is just another -ev form of gambling like blackjack or craps.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

For many of them, playing a tight aggressive game is hard.

For some, folding goes against the reason they are there. Don't assume they are there to win, many are there to play.

For others, being aggressive goes against another erason they play, which is to socialize.

Many people also cannot help but look for patterns, and so when they see a few flops in a row with hearts or 5s or whatever, they start playing trash for an orbit or two. And then they just switch what trash they play based on what has been on the board lately.

You could write a book (and Schoonmaker did).

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

This has been done to death, but I'll chime in anyways. Here's my theories:

-Online offers much lower stakes. A newbie player who knows he not any good can jump into a $0.25-$0.50 game online, while this same player is going to be forced to play $3-$6 or higher in many casinos.

-It's easy for live players to fool themselves into thinking they are winners when they are not. Lots of them don't even try to remember how many times they bought in, how many times they went to the ATM, how much they spend on food and drink, etc... They just remember that they dragged some big pots and forget all the money they donked off. For online players, it's a lot harder to fool yourself. Depositing onto the site takes more work, there's a record created of it, and it's hard to ignore your online account balance being half of what it was the day before. I think lots of losing online players are forced to face the fact, so they either try play better, stop playing, or move down in stakes.

-I think that social pressures makes many live players more passive. Most people have a natural aversion to confrontation, so it's harder to raise someone (especially on a bluff) when looking them in eye. Just like how everyone's a tough guy on the internet, online it's easy to just click "raise" and be more of a bully. Most low-limit players play way too passive, so when they play more agressively, it makes the game tougher.

-Boredom. I think this one is a huge reason. Playing solid poker requires lots and lots of folding. Online, action junkies can just open more tables (and even at one table there is many more hands/hour). Many good players lack the required discipline to play well live when card dead. Likewise, online it's easy to just quit when you are tired or playing bad, but many live players drive for hours to get to the cardroom, so they feel the need to play for as long as they can, since they can't just log on again in the morning (I actually suffer from this sometimes).

-Alcohol. Every cardroom serves drinks, and there is a bar-like atmosphere that encourages drinking, with people buying each other shots and such (or free alcohol in vegas). Getting drunk will make pretty much anyone play badly.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

Play higher, your opinion might change...

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

In my experience, most low limit players (2/4, 3/6, 4/8 etc) are exactly as Truebritt described it. Nothing but a bunch of donkeys. On avg 5-7 people going to the river every hand banging the pot the whole way & a wired pair of ducks wins it all. It's unreal. It's a great way to make money if you have the bankroll for the swings & the stomach/temperment for the variance.

The NL group, in my experience, is about half & half. You have some TAG players & you have some bona fide gambooolers. There are also some of the slow-playing, trapsetters sprinkled in there too for good measure. But, I do see alot of overvaluing of hands by most of the NL crowd especially at the 1/2 tables. I don't know if they are there to gamble it up or if they really believe they have the best hand.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

People are simply there to gamble it up and often play far too many hands out of sheer boredom. Online, you go 15 hands without seeing anything playable, it takes 10-12 minutes. You also can open another table and ignore the issue. Live, 15 unplayable hands = a half hour minimum in which you have nothing to do. Many live players also aren't serious players in the sense that they're out to have a good time and don't really think deep enough to assess that KQs might be beat in a hand that gets 4bet preflop.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

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For others, being aggressive goes against another erason they play, which is to socialize.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. I've seen countless players just check down the river with the stone cold nuts because they don't want to raise and bust their drinking buddies.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

Class war: People that own and depend on computers are smarter.

Many people who go the card room are leaving their s####y constructionn or factory job. They are also prone to be more tired after 12 hours of work, not as driven to succeed, or maybe just to tired to do anything but work.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

i am not sure i agree with your demographics. where i play the morning and afternoon games are filled with either retired older types, self employed business owners, and various white collar types playing hooky from work. the play can be pretty bad and i'm not sure why. there aren't really any drinkers and most are not very social. i guess it must be the action they crave, as way to many hands are called all the way down with marginal at best hodings. at my table there had to be six or seven guys stuck for 1.5 k and more. they keep buying short and giving it away. sad, and it seems to have gotten worse in the last year.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
They are there for entertainment. Poker for them is just another -ev form of gambling like blackjack or craps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or bingo.

Yep.

The game is also alot slower than online so they won't bust out near as easily/quick and their playing money is more easily replenishable.

b

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

I haven't played in the afternoon for a long time. I came from the realization that my body actually prefers to wake up a 4 pm. But I do remember playing against (insert government employee), but yeah, they did play bad.

I think that the nail here is that they are trying to blow off some steam. Surely, these people aren't going to take a hour out of their otherwise busy day and fold.

I think that, especially in the case of said governmant employees, throwing around chips makes them feel richer than they really are. I think that is the case with chips period. You simply don't realize the drastic change in numbers until your stack is depleted or obscenely huge. Oppose that to a number in your face.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

Very few people are there to play poker. They are there to have fun. Some guys are there to play poker. They play online and make lots of money (also known as rakeback and bonus whoring.) They take their poker very seriously. The rest of us have fun watching them steam when they find out that playing live isn't as easy as they thought it was, when Joe Welder hits his flush with K3s and sucks out on Joe Cool with his Oakleys.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

god bless joe welder.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

HA!! You guys need to play in the Los Angeles area card rooms. They have people that'll wreck you. People here don't have to go to Vegas to play or drive hours upon hours to play so they play everyday. Of course you still find donks here and there but there are also many good players too.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

well.... ease up there cowboys... just because ur crushing the 1-2nl game doesn't mean live players suck. go up a level or two and i think you'll be pleasantly surprised [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
HA!! You guys need to play in the Los Angeles area card rooms. They have people that'll wreck you. People here don't have to go to Vegas to play or drive hours upon hours to play so they play everyday. Of course you still find donks here and there but there are also many good players too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol at this post, Commerce has some of the best games in the country.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

Beacuse live players have to think for themselves observe for themselves and not use data mining software to tell them when to bet, fold, and raise.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HA!! You guys need to play in the Los Angeles area card rooms. They have people that'll wreck you. People here don't have to go to Vegas to play or drive hours upon hours to play so they play everyday. Of course you still find donks here and there but there are also many good players too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol at this post, Commerce has some of the best games in the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my point. Sometimes I don't type so well.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

I don't see this at all at my cardroom. Last Friday I played 4/8 at Canterbury. I switched tables 4 times and couldn't find a decent table. Every table was pretty tight with very few unraised flops. The few fish that were there either busted quickly or sucked out every other hand. Also, it's easy to think the other players suck when you're running good.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

I didn't drive all the way out here to fold.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it's easy to think the other players suck when you're running good.

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Actually, i tend to think that after i see them showdown T2 soooted when a raise and reraise was thrown in there. Not that it matters, i called some idiots reraise with 34s cause i knew if i hit he gets stacked everytime. I play at Oceans 11 and the Pechanga for the most part.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
HA!! You guys need to play in the Los Angeles area card rooms. They have people that'll wreck you. People here don't have to go to Vegas to play or drive hours upon hours to play so they play everyday. Of course you still find donks here and there but there are also many good players too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh have you ever SEEN live at the bike? When someone says a game is good, they mean the players are bad.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
few fish that were there either busted quickly or sucked out every other hand.

[/ QUOTE ] Doesn't this make sense? Either they bust out (you get there money) or they don't.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see this at all at my cardroom. Last Friday I played 4/8 at Canterbury. I switched tables 4 times and couldn't find a decent table. Every table was pretty tight with very few unraised flops. The few fish that were there either busted quickly or sucked out every other hand. Also, it's easy to think the other players suck when you're running good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even I can crush 4-8 at Canterbury and I suck.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

If you suck then you're just running good.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

Because live players don't have cheatwear to do their thinking for them. Live players have to pay attention to the players, they have to pay attention to the action, and not all of them are up to it. Cheatwear at home is what make average and crappy online players good. When they get away from their cheatwear, no so goooood......

For the nits who will attack this post, when I say cheatware I'm referring to Poker HUD and other apps like that, not the software that claims to let you see your opponents cards.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't drive all the way out here to fold.

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This sums up live players in a nutshell... I can't fathom how many times I've heard the phrases "Ah f*** it, I came to Vegas to gamboool" or "You can't win big if you don't risk big" and then watching someone make the most ridiculous call of all time... They're not there to play poker... They're here to have fun...

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because live players don't have cheatwear to do their thinking for them. Live players have to pay attention to the players, they have to pay attention to the action, and not all of them are up to it. Cheatwear at home is what make average and crappy online players good. When they get away from their cheatwear, no so goooood......

For the nits who will attack this post, when I say cheatware I'm referring to Poker HUD and other apps like that, not the software that claims to let you see your opponents cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, my name is "a clue", we have never met before...

If you think that PT and PAHUD provide some magical information that allows you to make decisions while playing poker you are smoking crack.

The only thing that PT and PAHUD provide (during play) that you could not really do live is seeing mucked hands at showdown. Well technically you could do that live too, but you would likely get your ass kicked for asking to see every hand shown down.

So what is the difference between PAHUD showing me that a player is 23/3/5 and knowing that Frank is tight, aggressive post flop and rarely raises PF and generally only big pairs?

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because live players don't have cheatwear to do their thinking for them. Live players have to pay attention to the players, they have to pay attention to the action, and not all of them are up to it. Cheatwear at home is what make average and crappy online players good. When they get away from their cheatwear, no so goooood......

For the nits who will attack this post, when I say cheatware I'm referring to Poker HUD and other apps like that, not the software that claims to let you see your opponents cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the view of the original post was "Many players who only play live" are bad and "Online players who move to live play" are much better. You seem to think "online players who move to live" are lost without their stat packages and fall easy prey to the average B&M player.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]

So what is the difference between PAHUD showing me that a player is 23/3/5 and knowing that Frank is tight, aggressive post flop and rarely raises PF and generally only big pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

you said the difference yourself: PAHUD shows you. You don't have to remember it. Other diffrences include but are not limited to:

fewer hands / hr in live games
higher rotation of faces you've never seen before and may never see again (in a casino)
those that you do recognize, if they're worth remembering, they'll probably remember you, too - and adjust.
[and mentioned already...]
alcohol abounds
a seat at the poker table is no different from a seat at a table game to many gamboooolers. this is the kicker right here. biggest reason why live is so much easier.

and then you've also got consider all the reasons recreational players pony up to the table... just for the competition, kill time, maybe they just hate money...

live poker will have its ups and downs, but i don't see it fading into the distance any time before the sun burns out.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

I think most on-line players (rec players, not 6-tablers) who win and know how to play good cards will do well at live play. I have. I was probably only a 1BB/hour on-line player and I'm about 1.5BB/hr live. I also think live is a lot more fun, I feel like I'm really playing cards because I can physically touch the cards and chips. On-line play become like a drone and is only fun for so long. But that's just my $0.02.

MM

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]

Uh have you ever SEEN live at the bike? When someone says a game is good, they mean the players are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, never watched it.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

All of these answers are correct. I drive 40+ minutes to play in games that resemble online. I even play up to 20/40 live and mostly 2/4 online. (The 20/40 last weekend played like 4/8, just with red chips) At the local casino worth going to, I hear, "I work for a living, not play poker" The casino offers free sandwhiches, soup, and self serve drinks. Hell I go for dinner and leave with a few dollars in my pocket.

The bottom line is that it is just like blackjack and craps to them. They are suppose to loose and the eventually do.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

I was taken back at the really bad play that I witnessed when I played live for teh very first time this year. I was so concerned about looking like a fool and giving away tells etc. I was really nervous needles to say, but afgter about 5 hands, i told myslef that I was easily one the best if ni the best player at the table(not a brag at all believe me). This was only 2-4 LHE and $40 max NLHE but still I was expecting way better players. I am still a beginner but I study the game and play a lot. I haev yet to play hogher than any game that is more than 3-6 but I haev played stud, Omaha ,LHE and NLHE and theryre all bad.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

A lot of live players are straight up degenerate gamblers.... they're there because the internet doesn't actually feed them.... or give them beer. Also they lose their money a bit slower (sometimes not) than they do at slots/craps/whatever.

They don't seem to ever leave.. they smell... they drink to much... and often borrow money.. when you get up to go to the bathroom you'll notice they took 15 bucks off the table to spin the roulette wheel... because they can't go take a leak and come back without betting.

Where some of these players get their money is beyone me.. but they go into their pocket over and over and over.... sometimes its depressing to watch them waste their lives away.

This isn't really the case in bigger gambling destinations like vegas... but there are some of them there too....

One time I was playing a late night 9/18 game at bellagio where some lady had her 7-10 year old kid sitting next to her... the lady was dumping chips like the titanic. The kid kept saying "mommy i'm tired" and she kept telling the kid to quiet down that mommy was going to win some money... I think eventually the floor asked her to leave.

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Getting drunk will make pretty much anyone play badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont always agree with that... after the 11th shot my omaha game becomes top notch

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting drunk will make pretty much anyone play badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont always agree with that... after the 11th shot my omaha game becomes top notch

[/ QUOTE ]

After 11 shots, are you sure you're playing Omaha and not just seein double?

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because live players don't have cheatwear to do their thinking for them. Live players have to pay attention to the players, they have to pay attention to the action, and not all of them are up to it. Cheatwear at home is what make average and crappy online players good. When they get away from their cheatwear, no so goooood......

For the nits who will attack this post, when I say cheatware I'm referring to Poker HUD and other apps like that, not the software that claims to let you see your opponents cards.

[/ QUOTE ]



lol, worst post ever

Re: Why do the Live Players......
 

Rich:

I don't really understand your post.

Are you saying that everyone should go to their local B&M cardroom because the players are so bad and you are making tons of cash? Or, are you saying that the bad (not by the book) play is causing you to get sucked out on more than online and you are losing money?

I'm an exclusively live player myself and I've never heard anyone complain about making too much $$$. In fact, we love when you online experts come to town to teach us how to play poker [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].