Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

First change "dumb" to "inconsistent". Shocking titles get more hits.

Secondly the two subjects I'm going to bring up are quite seperate and each is important in their own right. But I lumped them together because I see a common thread. A thread that can be applied to many things besides these two.

Moderate Muslims can often be seen denouncing Muslim extremeists who espouse violence with the words that the extremists are twisting the Koran's teachings. I have no idea if that is true. But I do know that there have been many western writers who state the it appears the Koran does indeed advocate what the extremists claim. Since that point is bandied about so much why do the moderates not make a major effort to engage extremists in a public debate showing once and for all that both the extremists and the western journalists are wrong? Is it because an accurate reading of the Koran shows them not to be wrong. Are the moderates simply picking and choosing certain things from the Koran to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice? Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

The Catholic analogy relates to whether it is possible to not believe Jesus is the son of God, (even though he is known to you) and still have a chance at heaven. Apparently the Catholic answer is yes. But the fundamentalist Christian answer is no. The fundamentalists express human anguish at this state of affairs that allows a Jonas Salk to go to hell and a rapist to be saved. But on a higher plane they say that God has good reasons for this and more importantly it is not up to them to contradict what is plainly stated in the New Testament. On the SMP forum some Catholic posters have cited a couple of passages that they claim refutes the fundamentalist position but the fundamentalists, especially the articulate NOT READY, have appeared to be able to quickly dispense with these refutations, explaining how those passages are misconstrued and citing numerous passages that state their position. And at least on our forum the Catholics do not debate further. Are the Catholics simply picking and choosing certain things from the Bible to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice? Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

David:

I suppose one issue here is that for many of the kind of people who seriously engage in these debates within Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism ARE NOT strands of the same religion. I think the first question for any fundamentalist Protestant being engaged in this debate should be, "Do good Catholics go to heaven?" In many cases, the answer will be no. And that's fine. But you need to know the answer to that question up front. Because if the answer is no, you are dealing with an entirely different set of questions.

I can't speech to Islam, but I can imagine that the same sticking point occurs.

I know this doesn't address your main concern in the post, but it's important - it speaks to motive.

mg

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

Interestingly, Not Ready clearly states that believing that non believers can be saved is NOT a belief that keeps you from heaven. If that makes sense.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are the moderates simply picking and choosing certain things from the Koran [Bible] to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and this goes for both Christians and Muslims.

[ QUOTE ]
The Catholic analogy relates to whether it is possible to not believe Jesus is the son of God, (even though he is known to you) and still have a chance at heaven. Apparently the Catholic answer is yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being raised a Catholic I respectfully disagree. Belief in Jesus as god is the central tenet of the Catholic faith, just as it is with any other Christian church. Some liberal Catholics try to get around this by citing the Catholic Church's position on "baptism of desire". But here is the relevant quote from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

"Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized"

So we are talking about an exception for:
-unbaptized martyrs
-people studying to be Catholics but who die before baptism
-good people who have never heard of the Church

It certainly does not mean that Catholics think good Jews, Muslims, etc. are going to heaven. They don't. Or, if they do it is their own morality saying it, not any teaching of the church.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

My experience is that the moderate or liberal believers do not hold the source book (Koran / Bible) as authoritative. Which does put them on a weird footing. They are often pretty reasonable and positive people, but have little standing to challenge either the non-believers or the fundamentalists.

I've tried to argue that cherry picking from the Bible is no worse than not-cherry picking from the Bible. The Bible itself is the result of cherry picking, editing, and censorship from long ago. Other then historical accuracy, there is no good reason to favor one result of cherry-picking over another.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

Did you read any of Sam Harris books, David ?
He has similar view on this subject.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

I don't know about the Koran, but The Bible has quite a bit of passages most christians won't like you to see.

I made an illustrative post about this not too long ago. Most of you probably didn't notice. (Or maybe you didn't care)
Bible quotes post

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

I'm not a student of either the bible or the Koran, but it seems likely to me that both sides can find evidence to support their positions. Hence, "The devil can quote scripture."

Religions can be looked at as memes competing in a darwinian fashion for followers. Religions that are too doctrinaire about how to behave towards non-believers, would be less likely to survive than those that allowed followers some wiggle room. If both a hard-line and a concilliatory approach can be justified from the scripture, followers can decide upon the most advantageous course depending upon the precise political factors they find themselves in.

It would appear that the two most successful world religions are both somewhat ambiguous as to how to regard non-believers.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Moderate Muslims can often be seen denouncing Muslim extremists…

[/ QUOTE ]


Often? I find it rare, I could just be missing most of them.


[ QUOTE ]
But I do know that there have been many western writers who state the it appears the Koran does indeed advocate what the extremists claim…

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not being sarcastic when I say, I guess I have no clue about this stuff then. I haven’t come across that. But, don’t go by me. I get most of my news from TV.

[ QUOTE ]
…Since that point is bandied about so much why do the moderates not make a major effort to engage extremists in a public debate showing once and for all that both the extremists and the western journalists are wrong? Is it because an accurate reading of the Koran shows them not to be wrong. Are the moderates simply picking and choosing certain things from the Koran to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice? Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Pope really was trying to engage intelligent debate with the Muslims when he spoke at University in Germany not long ago. I guess no Muslim intellectual felt up to the task.

Regarding your Catholic point:

I think most Catholics feel that regardless of what we believe, it is God who judges. Most of us feel that it is not for us to “decide” these things.

Yes, our Church teaches and even promulgates certain things to/for us Catholics. But, to judge others (even ourselves) , really is not our place.

RJT

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

It being Christmas time, reviewing Jeremiah 10 couldn't hurt:

[ QUOTE ]
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let Us Rejoice And Sing!

Oh Christmas Tree

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

Not only in the summertime,
But even in winter is thy prime.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

I will always be suspect of any man who can say they know 100% the will of God.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

My observation is that moderates are not completely familiar with their religion's teachings or beliefs.

Extremists tend to focus on one part or another to base their beliefs.

Many who study the whole religion either don't understand it (and dare not question it) or reject it (Christians, anyway).

As an aside, I received an email once from a friend regarding the Koran, which had to do with destroying the United States. Being a skeptic, I searched online and found a site where I could check this out. Total bull. Emailed my friend back, and everyone else he forwarded it to, and suggested he double-check such inflammatory emails before forwarding.

If the Koran said such nasty things, wouldn't it be quoted?

From what I've read, the Bible is far worse than the Koran.

But what do I know. The one guy I knew who regularly read the Koran was convicted as a terrorist.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

why do the moderates not make a major effort to engage extremists in a public debate

You'd have to read Arabic newspapers to really know the scene, but people who've lived in the Mideast and read the newspapers tell me that there is a constant debate. Tension between moderate and extreme interpretations of Islam DEFINE contemporary life in the Muslim world. In fact, Iranian students are protesting the freakish Holocaust denial conference in Tehran as we speak. London Times article

many western writers state the it appears the Koran does indeed advocate what the extremists claim.

Like the Bible, you can find support for most any position. But there is no lack of support for peace and tolerance in the Koran.

I am currently reading the superb book Islam, by Karen Armstrong, a prominent scholar of religion. According to her, Mohammed considered himself simply the latest of many prophets speaking for God. He insisted that Jesus, Jacob, and other children of Abraham followed just as legitimate a path as Muslims. His goal was to bring monotheism and the religion of Abraham to the Arabs, and had no strong feelings about what anyone else should think. Armstrong goes so far as to suggest that although Mohammed had never heard of Budda or Confuscious, he would have considered them simply other messengers of the one true God, albeit directed at Asia. The Prophet specified that Jews and Christians should be revered and not coerced to change. Mohammed apparently saw Christians and Jews as more advanced than Arabs because they had adopted Abraham's monotheism. They were to be emulated, not persecuted.

Within Arabia, he brokered peace agreements and halted much of the endemic tribal warfare.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Oh Christmas Tree

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

Not only in the summertime,
But even in winter is thy prime.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

[/ QUOTE ]

SEATTLE AIRPORT TAKES DOWN CHRISTMAS TREE, IN SHOW OF SECULARISM

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Catholic analogy relates to whether it is possible to not believe Jesus is the son of God, (even though he is known to you) and still have a chance at heaven. Apparently the Catholic answer is yes. But the fundamentalist Christian answer is no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone fill this in for me...I thought Catholics were some of the most strict on if you don't believe in Jesus you cannot make it into heaven. I'm reading this like most Catholics think you don't have to believe that Jesus was the Son of God to get into heaven. I'll admit I'm no Catholic guru at all, but I always thought Catholics were the most stringent on "only one way to get in heaven and that is through God?"

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

He was also a warlord, and one way he was able to settle tribal problems was by scaring the living crap out of everyone.

That said, it's not like being a brutal warlord and screwing tons of women, including underage ones, was unpopular at the time.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

Personally I've never seen the point of this kind of religeous debate. Surely belief by it's very nature is a personal thing. The Bible (or Koran) doesn't define what you believe, youdefine what you believe.

A Christian (for want of a better word) can read the Bible and decide for himself what parts he wants to believe or take literally and what parts he doesn't. If he elects to disbelieve certain parts (the resurrection for example), then fundamentalist Christians might say that he can no longer call himself a Christian. But then again, this also is a personal thing, 'Christian' is just a label. Fundamentalist Christians have no right to say what you can call yourself in a free country.

As a result, the whole debate becomes rather meaningless. Can a non-believer get into heaven? Some people would say yes and some would say no. Who really cares what the Bible says, because virtually by definition you can pick and chose what parts of the bible you want to believe. The non-believer himself certainly wouldn't care as he doesn't believe in heaven anyway. Maybe when you get up there you can see who was right, but until then it's not really worth debating.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

I'm a Christian who went to a Catholic school and as far as I'm concerned the major turning point in any form of Christianity is that Jesus was the son of God and that knowing Jesus is a requirement for heaven. The whole reason for this is that heaven is a perfect place, there is no sin. The only way Christians believe a person can become sinless it through belief that through Jesus' death on the cross he took away our sins. I don't know as much about the exact Catholic teaching as I probably should do having come from a Catholic school but I do know that the church I currently belong to fully belief that noone can enter heaven without knowledge of Jesus.

As far as Islam goes I only know a little, but the major aspect that I think extremists and liberalist differ on is their interpretation of jihad. Extremists take the idea of jihad literally, and see it as a calling to take part in Holy Wars, whereas liberalists see jihad as an internal spiritual battle, rather than physical battles.

In the early days of Islam the religion was spread by holy war, Mohammed leading the first of these. The later suras in the Qur'an have phrases such as "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them" and "fight those who do not believe in Allah". These contradict the earlier phrase "let there be no compulsion in religion". Liberalists may use that earlier phrase as justification as Islam being a peaceful religion, however in cases where there is contradiction in Qur'an Islamic teaching instructs Muslims to obey the later command. From what I personally understand of Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an I don't see how it could be construed as a peaceful religion.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

I think what they are doing is giving people a chance to figure it out for themselves. Saying that if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell can be a difficult thing to say to someone.

A great example is a funeral for someone who everyone knows didn't believe. You don't hear the priest talk about that persons stay in hell.

The interesting thing about the major religions that have the most conflict with each other is that the God they are referencing is the same God. Muslims,Christians and Jews all have the same God and agree they have the same God. The thing they don't agree about is who the messiah is. The Jews say the messiah hasn't come yet. The muslims say that Christ was the messiah and the fourth most important prophet but dispute the meaning of messiah. They say Mohammad is the last prophet(5th) and the most perfect being ever created. They all talk about Moses and the old testament. They all talk about God or Allah which is the same thing.

So to answer your question no that they aren't inconsistant or dumb. I just think they are being careful and humble. There might in fact be situations where mercy is given to someone by God. It wouldn't be fair or right to hurt people by taking away their HOPE when we may not be speaking correctly for God.

In reference to extremist groups

Jesus said "Give onto Ceasers what is Ceasers and unto Gods what is God's". The wisdom in this is that things have to run their course. That even if Ceaser is wrong it doesn't make it right to break the law if other ways to acomplish your goal can be had. So even if the extremists are correct in their view and interpretation they might have the wrong cause. They might be taking the wrong actions. They might even be able to acomplish the same result by doing it a different way. They say that Allah has called upon them to do these things that they are doing. The point is only God knows what He is using to acomplish His goals.

Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God. Eternal life seems better than rotting in a hole somewhere with no conciousness. As an atheist you can take whatever approach you want to try to make yourself feel confident that you are making the right decision. But you have to be 100 percent sure with NO DOUBT whatsoever for Atheism to be a +EV decision. Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth. They are very smart in humanist ways. Usually Science or Math. The irony is that the things they excell at the most are the things that prove that they are wrong. It's hilarious seeing an atheist explain his position.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

2/10

Your post was reasonable and then it descended into this trite. I was going to respond, now I'm not going to bother.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

2/10

Your post was reasonable and then it descended into this trite. I was going to respond, now I'm not going to bother.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right I should have said that Atheism is illogical and irrational. At the very least it is a very risky position to take. Similar to playing 72 offsuit. The reason it leaves no chance to be wrong. If you believe in nothing you either get nothing or hell if you are wrong. If I believe in ANY religion that advocates eternal life I have a better chance mathmatically of living forever in "heaven" than someone who doesn't believe in anything.

wager, older math dude\'s
 

[ QUOTE ]
Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God. Eternal life seems better than rotting in a hole somewhere with no conciousness. As an atheist you can take whatever approach you want to try to make yourself feel confident that you are making the right decision. But you have to be 100 percent sure with NO DOUBT whatsoever for Atheism to be a +EV decision. Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth. They are very smart in humanist ways. Usually Science or Math. The irony is that the things they excell at the most are the things that prove that they are wrong. It's hilarious seeing an atheist explain his position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pascal's Wager has been discussed at length, elsewhere, so I'll keep it brief. Basically, if god(s) exist, what makes you think that god(s) would prefer one insincerely believe in them solely as a failsafe?

Might a diety not prefer a person to be a strong atheist who's honest and consistent over the pseudo-agnostic who lies to himself just in case?

Then again, I'm one of the "dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth," so what do I know?

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

2/10

Your post was reasonable and then it descended into this trite. I was going to respond, now I'm not going to bother.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right I should have said that Atheism is illogical and irrational. At the very least it is a very risky position to take. Similar to playing 72 offsuit. The reason it leaves no chance to be wrong. If you believe in nothing you either get nothing or hell if you are wrong. If I believe in ANY religion that advocates eternal life I have a better chance mathmatically of living forever in "heaven" than someone who doesn't believe in anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

This falsely assumes that "god" requires your belief in him as a prerequisite for admittance into heaven. Taken to its extreme this position is ridiculous and untenable. An atheist who devotes his life to helping the poor, but never *ahem* "accepts jesus" will ALWAYS go to hell. Where as a serial killer who sincerely asks for forgiveness before death will still be admitted to heaven?

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

Guess I got here two minutes too late to refute Pascal's Wager.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

There is another problem with Pascal's wager that is less often cited. It assumes belief is something that can be switched on and off at will.

Let's say I promised you a million dollars if you believed in dragons. Let's also say you are 100% honest, or I had a 100% fail safe way of telling if you were lying (like God does). It is +EV for you to believe in dragons. You want to believe in dragons. Unfortunately you don't, you can't, you just don't believe in them.

It is the same for an atheist. They are not an atheist because they have chosen to be one. They are not an atheist just to piss off religeous people. The are an atheist because they don't believe in God. Even if they wanted to believe in God (most don't because they realise the stupidity of it all) they couldn't, because belief is not some something you can manufacture.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you believe in nothing you either get nothing or hell if you are wrong. If I believe in ANY religion that advocates eternal life I have a better chance mathmatically of living forever in "heaven" than someone who doesn't believe in anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you've already been refuted, but to add: there are also an infinite number of conceivable Gods who will reward non-believers with living forever in "heaven" while condemning believers to hell or destruction. Believing carries no less and no more risk than not believing.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

Since Karen Armstrong has been named once, I just wanted to recommend her book "History of God" as well. It covers the history of all three of the judeo-based religions and their respective evolution through the centuries. The very fact that religions have - in some cases fundamentally - changed over time is in itself interesting. If the people who wrote the book to begin with didn't believe what the people who read it today thinks that it means, it... Well, it puts it in perspective.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the early days of Islam the religion was spread by holy war, Mohammed leading the first of these. The later suras in the Qur'an have phrases such as "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them" and "fight those who do not believe in Allah". These contradict the earlier phrase "let there be no compulsion in religion". Liberalists may use that earlier phrase as justification as Islam being a peaceful religion, however in cases where there is contradiction in Qur'an Islamic teaching instructs Muslims to obey the later command. From what I personally understand of Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an I don't see how it could be construed as a peaceful religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the sort of thing I was talking about. You are "quoting" from the Koran without citing the verses, which most people do automatically with the Bible. Even if I was citing something from a poker book, I would give a page number.

Doing an online search of the Koran, I can't find these passages. That doesn't mean they aren't there, as diffenent translations use different words to interpret the same passage. But I hope you see the problem. If you are going to cite a passage in the Koran, that most would agree shines a negative light on it, then cite the place where it is written. It also wouldn't hurt to mention which translation you're citing. But at least give us the chapter and verse.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the Koran said such nasty things, wouldn't it be quoted?

From what I've read, the Bible is far worse than the Koran.


[/ QUOTE ]

Having browsed the Koran some more, and found some pretty ugly things in it, I must now reverse myself. The Koran if far worse that the Bible.

Just check out Chapter 9 for starters. web page

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Having browsed the Koran some more, and found some pretty ugly things in it, I must now reverse myself. The Koran if far worse that the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since both books explicitly command my death, I don't think either one can be 'far' worse than the other.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are right I should have said that Atheism is illogical and irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so, if any of the popularly supported religion's views of "their" god were to hold true, why would we believe that such an all loving, all singing, all dancing big fella would value the soul of a mass murderer who happens to claim a belief in Him above that of an honest, hard working, considerate person who doesn't? THAT is illogical and irrational.

[ QUOTE ]
If I believe in ANY religion that advocates eternal life I have a better chance mathmatically of living forever in "heaven" than someone who doesn't believe in anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring Pascal's wager, this argument is still flawed. Following this "logic", you should immediately rule out Judaism as a potential religion to feign belief in, since (as far as I'm aware) Judaism has no requirement to follow its tenets or affirm its belief system in order to secure one's eternal salvation, therefore expressing a belief in Judaism simply reuces your chances of being saved.

Further than any of this, to suggest that following (or in your case pretending to follow) a religion is in any way logical, is possibly the least logical comment on this thread - to paraphrase - I don't believe there is a God, but just in case I'm wrong I'm going to try to pull the wool over the eyes of one possible manifestation of him/her/it, because if there is a god he's probably either too stupid or too busy to see through my paper thin ruse.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the Bible was written some time after the supposed miraculous events of Jesus's life/death and then "revised" on numerous occasions when "new interpretations/evidence" came to light. What on earth would make anyone think that following the doctrine of a book re-written several times through the ages to support the then political position of the Vatican (or in the case of protestantism, the wish of the English monarch to get divorced and sleep around a bit more without being damned for eternity) would gain any favour in the eyes of the big guy?

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

I think part of the original question that David is trying to get at is what about the people who don't in their heart actually believe in God, but due to pressures from society or problems like Pascal's Wager, they go through the motions. They obey all of God's laws and perform the rituals that would show their faith even if its not sincere. They make their best attempt to believe. Would those individuals go to hell or not?

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since both books explicitly command my death, I don't think either one can be 'far' worse than the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your plight. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But if you look at the Christian part of the Bible, the New Testament, the old ways are more or less modified. I didn't see that happen in the Koran. And I think most of the stuff in the bible was directed at their own people breaking certain laws. I don't remember seeing anything about killing "pagans."

Also, extreme followers of the Koran are more a threat to people now than extreme Jews or Christians.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the situation. If they were official church spokespersons then probably not, it would be a dreadful PR move.

If they are acting as individuals then maybe, depending on what they want to get out of the situation.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your plight. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But if you look at the Christian part of the Bible, the New Testament, the old ways are more or less modified.

[/ QUOTE ]
The people who believe do not see it that way. Witness all the clamor for the Ten Commandments - found in the Old Testament. The Inquisition went on for centuries, based on the commands of Deuteronomy, long after the New Testament. Christians still hold the whole bible as an authority and make me uneasy.

[ QUOTE ]
And I think most of the stuff in the bible was directed at their own people breaking certain laws. I don't remember seeing anything about killing "pagans."

[/ QUOTE ]
Read Deuteronomy 13 and 17.

"If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to live in, anyone saying that some worthless men have gone out from among you and have seduced the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom you have not known), then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you, you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its cattle with the edge of the sword. Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt." - Deuteronomy 13:12 - 16 (Previous to this was the bit about gathering the whole town to kill your husband / wife / friend whomever if they proselytize for another God. Since you specified 'own people' earlier I left it out.)

[ QUOTE ]
Also, extreme followers of the Koran are more a threat to people now than extreme Jews or Christians.

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Only because there are more. The only thing that has made Judaism or Christianity more moderate is a reduction of the Bible as an authority. Which, I think, is kind of the point of the thread. Fundamentalists can claim 'The Bible says God's will is X. Obedience to God's word is good.' Moderates have a tough time responding to this because they wish to retain some authority being given to the bible - it's awful tough to be a follower of Jesus based on a Josephus passage - but only to select parts. They are also unwilling to actually revise the damn thing.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

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Only because there are more.

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More likely to be terrorists. And this sort of thing is more tolerated by their moderates.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

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In the early days of Islam the religion was spread by holy war, Mohammed leading the first of these. The later suras in the Qur'an have phrases such as "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them" and "fight those who do not believe in Allah". These contradict the earlier phrase "let there be no compulsion in religion". Liberalists may use that earlier phrase as justification as Islam being a peaceful religion, however in cases where there is contradiction in Qur'an Islamic teaching instructs Muslims to obey the later command. From what I personally understand of Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an I don't see how it could be construed as a peaceful religion.

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This is the sort of thing I was talking about. You are "quoting" from the Koran without citing the verses, which most people do automatically with the Bible. Even if I was citing something from a poker book, I would give a page number.

Doing an online search of the Koran, I can't find these passages. That doesn't mean they aren't there, as diffenent translations use different words to interpret the same passage. But I hope you see the problem. If you are going to cite a passage in the Koran, that most would agree shines a negative light on it, then cite the place where it is written. It also wouldn't hurt to mention which translation you're citing. But at least give us the chapter and verse.

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Sorry I should have put the references in with the original post. The parts a quoted are respectively Qur'an 9:5, Qur'an 9:29 and 2:256. The translations are probably a little different but as any Muslim will tell you; any translation is not really the Qur'an, since the only true version is in Arabic (I just thought I'd say this because it's another strange thing about Islam, they basically believe that Allah only speaks Arabic, which for an all knowing God is slightly contradictory).

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

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And this sort of thing is more tolerated by their moderates.

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Doubtful, how many moderate Muslims do you know that tolerate the actions of terrorism. All of my friends who are Muslim denounce the action of the extremists just as Christians denounce the extremist action of most Christians

Timothy McVeigh was Catholic, and Fred Phelps is a psycho Christian something or other, not to mention David Corish (spelling?).

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

David,

I'm a Lutheran pastor with rather Catholic proclivities.

Regarding Catholicism's teaching re: Hell -- the best place to get a decent dogmatic study of the issue is in Hans urs VonBalthazar's "Dare we Hope that all Men be Saved? (with a short Discourse on Hell)".

Here's the thesis: The Catholic Church has NEVER authoritively said of a particular individual "this person is in Hell". It teaches and has always believed in a 'final hope' for all humanity. That said, classical Catholicism certainly seems to insist that at least some people are excluded from the Unity with God all were created for.

I certainly hope and pray that all people will one day live out the true purpose for which they were made (in God's presence). I suspect the sadder reality is that many will, by God's unsearchable wisdom or by their own pushing away of God, instead exist in a Hell, which is best defined as the absence of God's presence.

Interestingly, however, Scripture never makes a dogmatic assertion of the theological premise a person must believe to 'be saved'. Modern Christians read passages like Christ's "noone can come to the Father except through me" as if they really say something like "no one can come to the Father unless they _believe_ in me."

No serious Catholic would refute the former -- any salvation worhty of the name -- be it for Christians, Buddhists, or even (slightly quirky, lapsed) Jews could happen apart from Christ. No one can come to the Father except 'through' Christ for Catholics. But when we start assuming that Scripture means more by 'through' than it seems to state, we're interpreting our own beliefs into Scripture.

I certainly believe the Bible is the word of God -- but passages in Galations which make it seems as if Christ's work on the cross benefited all humanity in savlation do seem to contradict the words of Jesus in Matthew (goats and sheep, etc.). Trusting the wisdom and long teaching of the Church on these matters, and not assuming that literary tracts and letters were written to be theological books of dogma would go a long way toward making this impasse between 'liberal' catholics and evangelical Christians less of a struggle.

Finally, it should be noticed that one of the late-modern heroes of evangelical Christianity, C. S. Lewis, seems to believe that some non-believers go to heaven (read "The Great Divorce" or "God in the Dock"). He also seems to think that some outwardly pious 'beleivers' go straight to a Hell of their own making.

I suppose I've written a lot. I'm not up for proof-texting, but would be glad to come up with citations for the quotations I've mentioned.

Re: Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?
 

A lot of people talk about not believing in God, but having a fake belief. Does anyone feel like I do, that there is something else beyond us, but I nor anyone else has any way of knowing what it is, therefor taking a stance is irrational. Also I see religion as only a means of control.