Anyone play this different?
 

I just couldn't bring myself to play this into a crowd. Anybody disagree?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO folds, SB folds, Hero folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

I'd be tempted to bet this flop. You have top pair in a pot where no one has shown strength.

But, I don't mind this line considering there is really no way you can be sure you're ahead in this hand and the pot is quite small.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

Wow I definitely bet the flop. What was your thinking?

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

Well I'm OOP with no kicker. The guy behind me is 14/0/.25 The next two are loose preflop but seem to get away from their loosing hands and the fourth is a rock. I considered betting and folding to a raise but couldn't pull the trigger. An ace coming up on the turn or river would be a big problem if 2 or three stayed. Anybody holding a K and staying is likely to be ahead of me. At present there is no pot to protect and no real assurance there will be. If a pot does develop wouldn't I most likely be behind. The result I can like from betting is if everyone folds. I thought that unlikely. FWIW that was my thinking right or wrong.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

Bona,

I think a bet is right for the following reason:

No one has showed much strength so far in the hand. There isn't any reason to believe your hand isn't best. With two loose players in the pot, you'll definitely be getting value from some worse hands. Your reads are helpful, and I'd watch out if either of the rocks calls, but I think your holding is just too strong not to bet for value.

As for your contentions:

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An ace coming up on the turn or river would be a big problem if 2 or three stayed.

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True, but how often does this happen? The ace doesn't hit that often, and given your descriptions of the players, they'll be apt to fold.

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Anybody holding a K and staying is likely to be ahead of me.

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True, but someone (e.g. the loose players) might call you with a T or a 6 as well. Sometimes even a worse K will call you.

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At present there is no pot to protect and no real assurance there will be. If a pot does develop wouldn't I most likely be behind. The result I can like from betting is if everyone folds. I thought that unlikely.

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There are 5 SBs in the pot. Your bet doesn't have to successfully get a fold from everyone very often to show a profit. Also, it could well be for value.

Basically, I can't imagine flopping top pair in an unraised pot and wanting to check-fold. I think this is way too nitty.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

Amazingly you are not the first to think I am nitty!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] And you are both probably right. Are you enjoying your new title? Congratulations!!!

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Amazingly you are not the first to think I am nitty!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] And you are both probably right. Are you enjoying your new title? Congratulations!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's awesome. Thanks, man.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

*grunch*

I fold this one too no doubt.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

Bet the flop. The rest I couldn't say better than DrModern

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

wow, this is a bad fold. what are you worried about?! bet the flop!

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

So we bet the flop and get one call from UTG. How do we play a blank turn?

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

we bet.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

After reading Doc's and others replies about betting the flop here with flopped top pair in an unraised pot where no one has shown any strength yet, I have a question. What if the situation were slightly different where the SB bets into us here on this flop? SB's range could be huge considering SB only put in part of a bet to see the flop. Do we think SB has a K with a bigger kicker, a set, 2 pair, flush draw, etc. and fold the flop? Or is this thinking simply MUBS and you should call or even raise here? Thanks in advance for any advice on this kind of situation.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

[ QUOTE ]
After reading Doc's and others replies about betting the flop here with flopped top pair in an unraised pot where no one has shown any strength yet, I have a question. What if the situation were slightly different where the SB bets into us here on this flop? SB's range could be huge considering SB only put in part of a bet to see the flop. Do we think SB has a K with a bigger kicker, a set, 2 pair, flush draw, etc. and fold the flop? Or is this thinking simply MUBS and you should call or even raise here? Thanks in advance for any advice on this kind of situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we have a read that SB is loose preflop, so, while he could be doing this with a better K, he could also be semibluffing the FD, or betting with a weaker K, or even a T sometimes.

I think putting him on a set or 2 pair just because he bets the flop is MUBS. Also, I think you accidentally implied that if we thought SB was betting the flop with a flush draw, you'd want to fold. Might wanna double check that.

I'd probably raise here, tho I can think of some arguments for calling. The one thing I'm not doing is folding.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

I guess I'm the only one who checks this to see what develops. If the bettor is one of the last two after I check, I raise.

My typical line with TPnK in these multiway spots OOP is to check first and see.

Edit: My reasoning: Plenty of folks will just limp along with better kings than us especially if there are limpers to them. We're certainly not getting anyone to fold with any kind of draw and their hand has a better chance of improving than ours. We don't even like our 8s that much. Another K is the best we can hope for and that's of course if there isn't another one out there. Our hand is weak and betting is only folding hands that are long shots against us. I say wait for safe turn and get aggro there perhaps.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

I lead this flop. I have no particular reason to think that top pair isn't good, so I'm betting and going from there. Obviously I'm not going to get into any raising wars.

If SB had led into me, I am either raising or folding depending on my read of the SB. If SB is pretty aggressive, then he could be leading with a bunch of stuff (including fds and oesds) so I would raise to protect my hand. If SB were passive, I would just fold. I would never just call this bet.

WOW GUYS
 

guys, everyone is overthinking this really weak-tightly which is what causes ed miller to write famous posts. here is the correct thinking here:

we flop top pair in an unraised pot. the board is dry. nobody shows any aggression. we bet. donkeys call or fold. the turn is a blank. we still have top pair. we bet. donkeys call or fold. and so on.

stop worrying about people's stats and reads so much sometimes and just play the cards, and use those stats or reads only in marginal situations (some preflop) or if someone starts playing back at you or shows aggression postflop.

bbb.

Re: WOW GUYS
 

[ QUOTE ]
guys, everyone is overthinking this really weak-tightly which is what causes ed miller to write famous posts. here is the correct thinking here:

we flop top pair in an unraised pot. the board is dry. nobody shows any aggression. we bet. donkeys call or fold. the turn is a blank. we still have top pair. we bet. donkeys call or fold. and so on.

stop worrying about people's stats and reads so much sometimes and just play the cards, and use those stats or reads only in marginal situations (some preflop) or if someone starts playing back at you or shows aggression postflop.

bbb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a good point.

Sometimes getting better means getting worse in areas we weren't once proficient in, for a while anyway.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

Ya know. I think I like your check/raise line with this. I am going to think it thru some more but on the face of it- it makes sense to me. Fold to a reraise of course. Lead the turn UI? Check/fold if an A hits?

I also am not discounting BaBars comments that leading until fired back at may be best. I am too tight sometimes. I hate no kicker hands though and especially OOP.

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm OOP with no kicker. The guy behind me is 14/0/.25 The next two are loose preflop but seem to get away from their loosing hands and the fourth is a rock. I considered betting and folding to a raise but couldn't pull the trigger. An ace coming up on the turn or river would be a big problem if 2 or three stayed. Anybody holding a K and staying is likely to be ahead of me. At present there is no pot to protect and no real assurance there will be. If a pot does develop wouldn't I most likely be behind. The result I can like from betting is if everyone folds. I thought that unlikely. FWIW that was my thinking right or wrong.

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To go along with Doc's post. Saying that you have no kicker is a bit of an underestimation of the strength of your hand. This might be a clue to why you are thinking that your hand is worse than it is and hence... why you checked! You have a decent hand here with a alright kicker. Bet it out! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Anyone play this different?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After reading Doc's and others replies about betting the flop here with flopped top pair in an unraised pot where no one has shown any strength yet, I have a question. What if the situation were slightly different where the SB bets into us here on this flop? SB's range could be huge considering SB only put in part of a bet to see the flop. Do we think SB has a K with a bigger kicker, a set, 2 pair, flush draw, etc. and fold the flop? Or is this thinking simply MUBS and you should call or even raise here? Thanks in advance for any advice on this kind of situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we have a read that SB is loose preflop, so, while he could be doing this with a better K, he could also be semibluffing the FD, or betting with a weaker K, or even a T sometimes.

I think putting him on a set or 2 pair just because he bets the flop is MUBS. Also, I think you accidentally implied that if we thought SB was betting the flop with a flush draw, you'd want to fold. Might wanna double check that.

I'd probably raise here, tho I can think of some arguments for calling. The one thing I'm not doing is folding.

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Thanks a lot Doc, that was very helpful. You are correct that I did not mean to imply we fold here if we put SB on the flush draw - in my long list of SB's possible holdings I included the FD and then added "fold" at the end. I need to read my posts more carefully before clicking . . .

Sometimes I think that I struggle with MUBS because I look at another player's action (check, bet, raise, check/raise, etc.) with what kind of cards I would have if I acted in the same way. I think I was giving SB too much credit here for leading out the betting. A call probably isn't terrible (with the plan to wait to see the turn card and if safe raise then), but I think a raise here might be better to try to eliminate later players. My plan after the raise would be to continue betting the turn and river even UI but fold to a re-raise on the flop, call a re-raise on the turn and call the river.

Re: WOW GUYS
 

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the board is dry.

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I bet this every time even though I consider KT6 with a two-flush to be a pretty connected board