Ace/rag on the button
 

In a bit of a downswing (hope it's just a downswing [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ), so looking a bit harder at my hands

SB is terrible. He literally plays every hand and switches between calling station and maniac.
BB has done nothing unusual yet.

The table seems quite tight and rock like. If it wasn't for SB I would probably move, and am still considering it, as I don't have position on him.

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
7 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero ...

Preflop raise was hoping to either get the blinds (unlikely), or get heads up with SB.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

eee ... tight table with one retard on your left = change tables

on the flop, I think I might just call ... if SB has an ace he isn't folding - if SB has two random cards he may call (if he hits, it's unlikely to change much)

if you plan on staying at the table I might be inclined to call BB's turn donk ... if you aren't, then this is an easy fold

what info do you have on BB ... tight loose - aggressive??

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

No reads on BB in that he hasn't done anything to catch my eye. So take that as straight forward, not unusually aggressive, I guess. But, I haven't seen enough hands to say that with any certainty.

Sorry, don't have PT with me right now, so can't give you any stats.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

I go with a call-call-call line here, usually.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

*grunch*

What is your table image here? Do you steal a lot. Or are you passive?
BB has something on this flop. Maybe just a king and he suspects a steal, but he could easily have you dominated.
I would call here and check or call river.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I go with a call-call-call line here, usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you really only beat a complete bluff on the flop.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

yeah, call call call gets max value from bluffs, bad players, etc, when we're ahead, and loses min when we're behind.

xhad, i disagree that we only beat a bluff on the flop. in a blind battle i am betting any pair here, a draw, pock pairs, whatever, a solid amount of the time, and bluffing some too. the turn bet is a little odd but i'd still call down.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

If you give BB credit for playing OK don't we have to think he is ahead of top pair since he bet into aggrssion on this board? If so what can we draw here that wins? An ace MIGHT buy us a tie. A five may alrady be dead to 2 pair although there is a chance he would have 2 pair w/0 aces. I dont see a turn call. I don't think this wins veryoften from here. IMO it is a fold.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

im in the call/call camp so far.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, call call call gets max value from bluffs, bad players, etc, when we're ahead, and loses min when we're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

May I add that it also give us a better chance of keeping SB in the pot.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I go with a call-call-call line here, usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Gets most when we're ahead and they'll fold to our raise, lose least when we're behind.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

Is WA/WB appropriate for this situation?

Either he has a better Ace (maybe 2pr), or he's got a King and thinks we were trying to steal and have nothing (or he likes his King, and is not thinking what we have)

Are both equally likely?

I can see a good case for WB more than WA. KQ is worrying as is any A.

I did shutdown and go for a cheap showdown. It's good to see others taking that type of line also.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

I don't really worry about hands like AK, AQ and KQ. Villain would have 3-bet preflop if holding one of those.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

If we call isn't that giving SB the odds to call with middle or bottom pair? However, most of the time he will be drawing to less that 5 outs(right?) and therefore making a mistake in calling. Is this the principle behind calling here(along with what has already been added)?

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

It’s odd that he called your flop raise and then came out betting on the turn? If he’s got KQ or JT, why not check/raise the turn, because you’ll most likely bet if BB checks? So although this really looks that Q helped him, I would still be quite tempted to call him down.

I liked your raise preflop. A5o is favorite against two random hands.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really worry about hands like AK, AQ and KQ. Villain would have 3-bet preflop if holding one of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree to a certain extent, but I think this may be giving our opponents too much credit (by assuming our opponents think like we do). At this level I have seen players limp with these hands, so I can discount a little, but I think I'd limp here a fair bit with KQ (but I may be wrong to do that).

I'm also not as worried about AQ or AK as something like AT or A9.

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we call isn't that giving SB the odds to call with middle or bottom pair? However, most of the time he will be drawing to less that 5 outs(right?) and therefore making a mistake in calling. Is this the principle behind calling here(along with what has already been added)?

[/ QUOTE ]

SB would be getting 8:1. 5 outs gives him 8.2:1, so he would be calling incorrectly.

I did think about this, but my read was that SB was as likely to call two as one. I really don't think he was folding a King and was probably even calling two with a 3, so I really think he missed completely here.

Given that he switched between maniac and calling station a fold really surprised me. Even a 3-bet with air I thought was more likely [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I've read the response as we want to call to keep the pot small. We're not making anything here by betting the whole way, as worse hands probably aren't calling us all the way. So calling makes the most when we're ahead (when BB continues to bet), and loses least when we're behind (by not getting raised/3-bet anywhere).

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]

SB would be getting 8:1. 5 outs gives him 8.2:1, so he would be calling incorrectly.


[/ QUOTE ]

If we are going to get this exact on splitting hairs... lets nail down the odds killa! He is getting 8.4:1 on the flop! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My real point is...
I generally think of 5 outs as 8:1(therefore SB's best case scenario would be break-even) because we are talking about a pretty inexact science here when it comes to out counting. I could be wrong though!

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really worry about hands like AK, AQ and KQ. Villain would have 3-bet preflop if holding one of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lot of villian's don't ... of course they are mostly all retards [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ... and the type to donk top pair

Re: Ace/rag on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

SB would be getting 8:1. 5 outs gives him 8.2:1, so he would be calling incorrectly.


[/ QUOTE ]

If we are going to get this exact on splitting hairs... lets nail down the odds killa! He is getting 8.4:1 on the flop! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My real point is...
I generally think of 5 outs as 8:1(therefore SB's best case scenario would be break-even) because we are talking about a pretty inexact science here when it comes to out counting. I could be wrong though!

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Sorry, didn't mean to be picky about the odds. I just wanted to check myself that he would be making a mistake in calling.

I think you make a good point about how we want others to make a mistake and I thought that if this SB was going to make the mistake of calling one, he would also call two.