Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

this situation comes up often enough. Second hand of the tournament. UTG minraises. I am in the CO with QQ. I reraise to 100 (blinds 10/15). Folds back to UTG, who calls.

Flop comes QT6 rainbow. UTG checks. What do I do? Does it even matter?

A check here looks ridiculous and suspicious.
A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.
A pot sized bet looks too strong.
An overbet is unlikely to get called.

I've been experimenting with too small bets or overbets. I've thought about slowplaying to the river and giving him a chance to catch a hand. What do others do?

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

bet out about 1/2 the pot, if he caught a piece it will look like a continuation bet and maybe induce him to raise, if he didn't catch it (or have an overpair) he's going to fold no matter what.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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this situation comes up often enough. Second hand of the tournament. UTG minraises. I am in the CO with QQ. I reraise to 100 (blinds 10/15). Folds back to UTG, who calls.

Flop comes QT6 rainbow. UTG checks. What do I do? Does it even matter?

A check here looks ridiculous and suspicious.
A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.
A pot sized bet looks too strong.
An overbet is unlikely to get called.

I've been experimenting with too small bets or overbets. I've thought about slowplaying to the river and giving him a chance to catch a hand. What do others do?

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I'm confused. You've got top set with no flush draw. If he's behind, don't you WANT him to call and continue? On this flop, the only draw you'd really fear is a straight draw.

Bet as much as you think he's going to call.

I'd bet 1/2 pot to full pot here.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

You don't want to give AJ, AK, KJ or J9 a free draw at a straight. One thing about flopping a set is that no one is ever going to put you on it if you just keep betting like you normally do. If anything, your hand is more disguised the more aggressive you are with it. Bet 3/4 of the pot and hope you get some action. If not, no big deal.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can. Whatever way you see that will get as many chips going in to the pot as possible is the correct play. you can't be scared of the 2 outers to a higher set.

Note: in this hand because of the straight possibility, i wouldn't make it too cheap, i would give him borderline odds to draw to a straight. if i get sucked out on, then i resuck on river.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

225 in the pot, I probably bet 150 50% of the time and 200 50% of the time. On a QT6r flop I would usually bet the same 150-200 with AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, TT, 66, JJ, KJ, J9, and occasionally some other hands, including weaker tens, middle pairs, and bluffs, although some of the time I would check some of those. The point of course being that unless you are a total nit there are plenty of hands he has to call with the times you have top set. Some opponents fold to preflop raisers too often; if you are against one fo them here, tough. The point versus that type isn't to trap them with top set but to bet bet bet with weaker hands. Early in the tourney, this can be a decent time to bet, get a fold, and show, assuming you plan on playing aggressively with weaker hands in the near future..

*Obviously I wouldn't have reraised some of those that often preflop.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

I like a smaller bet he as it will build a pot and if this has hit villian, he may play back. An overbet, if he missed, will chase him off. 1/2 pot would be my play.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can. Whatever way you see that will get as many chips going in to the pot as possible is the correct play. you can't be scared of the 2 outers to a higher set.

Note: in this hand because of the straight possibility, i wouldn't make it too cheap, i would give him borderline odds to draw to a straight. if i get sucked out on, then i resuck on river.

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You're half way there. Yes, the priority is getting max value, not protecting against draws. But you don't get max value by betting 75 and hoping they have a ten and will pay you off a little, you get max value by betting 150 or 200 and having done it often enough that they think you're full of [censored] and call or even checkraise with a ten, or 99, or a weak draw, or nothing.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

Everything that has been said is fine. There's no point slow playing - you want money in the pot and you don't want him drawing for free.
The manin problem is that he doesn't know you and your betting patterns so I don't think you should worry too much about getting tricky. If you were mid-tourny and had been making c/bets every time you raised then you would make another but in this case you're only going to get money if he has a piece of the flop or has a PP which he's reluctant to let go. I would bet the pot. You may get lucky and he has also hit a lower set or two pair or may just figure you're pushing him around. The bigger you can make the pot, the more difficult it will be for him to get away from it on turn and river and you can value bet all the way down.

Alternatively, given that he will probably fold to any bet except a pointless little one, you could set out your stall. Decide what your standard continuation bet is going to be from now on, bet that much and then show your cards when he folds.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can. Whatever way you see that will get as many chips going in to the pot as possible is the correct play. you can't be scared of the 2 outers to a higher set.

Note: in this hand because of the straight possibility, i wouldn't make it too cheap, i would give him borderline odds to draw to a straight. if i get sucked out on, then i resuck on river.

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You're half way there. Yes, the priority is getting max value, not protecting against draws. But you don't get max value by betting 75 and hoping they have a ten and will pay you off a little, you get max value by betting 150 or 200 and having done it often enough that they think you're full of [censored] and call or even checkraise with a ten, or 99, or a weak draw, or nothing.

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that is what i said right? getting as many chips going into the pot as you think is possible.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

Yes. My point is that if this is a flop he could have hit in a lot of ways, some of them kind of weak, but hit none the less. You want him to think JJ/AT/KQ are good pretty often against your pottish bet, and that AJ, AK are occasionaly ahead, have all their outs live, and that you'll check the turn through pretty often. You want him to checkraise AQ, not be cautious with it. if you've established a pattern of betting aggressively in position as the preflop aggressor and a pattern of being the preflop aggressor with more than big pairs and AK, you'll be able to bet medium-big here instead of small. (I realize this isn't easy to have established early in the tournament, but the philosophy remains).

As an aside, I tend to bet 2/3-3/4 pot rather than full b/c I think it gives more flexibility for later streets with stacks as shallow as they are online, which i want because I'm making that bet with a variety of hands on the flop with very different turn and river plans.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can.

[/ QUOTE ] This is completely wrong. If you give someone the proper odds to call you, then it is a +cEV move for them to call your bet. This is by definition. If it is +cEV for your opponent to call you, then it is -cEV for you when they do.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can.

[/ QUOTE ] This is completely wrong. If you give someone the proper odds to call you, then it is a +cEV move for them to call your bet. This is by definition. If it is +cEV for your opponent to call you, then it is -cEV for you when they do.

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this is wrong!!!

you are saying that if your opponent is drawing dead even, then that you should not give them the odds to call. this (barring the straight draw, as i stated) is a perfect example of this. your opponent practically is drawing dead. Not every instance is about not giving the proper odds to call. This is one of those instances (agains assuming there are no straight draws on flop) where we need to get MAXIMUM value for the hand.

If you flopped quads, you are also saying that you don't want to give your opponent odds to draw to his hand????

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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this is wrong!!!

you are saying that if your opponent is drawing dead even, then that you should not give them the odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ] If they are drawing dead, then you can't possibly give them the proper odds. A bet of 10 chips is +cEV for you. The only correct action for them is to fold to any bet.

Definition:
"Giving your opponent the odds to call." = Making a bet so that your opponent's pot odds are greater than his hand odds.

I think this is a debate about semantics. I know that you know what odds are, and all of that.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can.

[/ QUOTE ] This is completely wrong. If you give someone the proper odds to call you, then it is a +cEV move for them to call your bet. This is by definition. If it is +cEV for your opponent to call you, then it is -cEV for you when they do.

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Correct. But when you are giving someone pot odds to catch something like TP when you have a set, you're fine. This guy's odds of hitting a straight are much smaller.

In reality, you should be trying to get him to call a bet he THINKS he has pot odds to call.

This is the case here. The most dangerous draw is a straight, which he has 8 outs to hit. So give him worse odds than that.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

You have to go beyond what you plan to do with your cards and take a look at what hands your opponent may be playing. Depending on how your opponent plays, he may actually have caught a good chunk of that flop.

Let's say he raised UTG with AA, KK, AQ, or 1010. He may be opting for a check raise himself as a lot of less skilled players will check this flop with these hands. If you bet, he may come back over the top of you, or call hoping to trap you when he is the one falling into the trap.

Other options may be a hand like AK, AJ, KQ, KJ. Looser players will raise UTG with these hands. If he has, do you want him to see a free card and possibly draw out on you? A decent sized bet will cause your opponent to make a mistake if he wants to chase down his draw.

Your opponent may also have a hand like JJ or 99 and stick around to see the turn or what not. I see this plenty of times.

So all-in-all, I think a bet of about 2/3-3/4 the pot would be great right here. There is a good amount of money in the pot already for you to be happy with taking it down. He also may not confident in his hand, say if he has KQ. He then might just check/call you the entire way.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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A too small bet may give him proper odds to continue with his hand.

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what is wrong with this? the only drawing hand that can suck out on you is the straight, but let's suppose the straight possibility is not there. so many people believe you should not give someone the proper odds to call. You have hit a set, top set i might add. you want to get as much VALUE as you can.

[/ QUOTE ] This is completely wrong. If you give someone the proper odds to call you, then it is a +cEV move for them to call your bet. This is by definition. If it is +cEV for your opponent to call you, then it is -cEV for you when they do.

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The key word is "may" - in fact it is highly unlikely that this UTG raiser is holding precisely KJ or J9. Protecting against an 8-outer is the least of your concerns because you're only doing it like 5% of the time you make your bet (in other words, if a smaller bet happens to be wrong versus his exact hand (KJ, say), this is only a slight drag on the EV of your bet versus the range of hands he could hold because it is only weighted 5%. *If* a bet that KJ is correct to call has higher EV versus many of the rest of the 95% of hands he could have, it is correct to let KJ draw cheap in order to increase the overall EV you have versus the range.

On average your opponent probably has 2 outs. AK/AJ have gutshots, overpairs have two outers, AQ/KQ and a couple others (like three-flushes) have runner runner. Rockin is correct but I don't like his phrasing.

I think he'd be better off saying "you don't mind giving proper odds for the hand with the most outs against you to call" because it is unlikely he holds that particular hand and much more likely that he has a hand with many fewe outs that can't profitably call any bet. The consideration is how to extract value from the range, not how to protect against the 8-out draw at its fringe. I think, generally, and especially if you have the proper image, a larger bet is still best, but the primary reason is not to protect against KJ/J9 (and can't be, b/c KJ/J9 is too small a part of his range to be the focus).

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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this is wrong!!!

you are saying that if your opponent is drawing dead even, then that you should not give them the odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ] If they are drawing dead, then you can't possibly give them the proper odds. A bet of 10 chips is +cEV for you. The only correct action for them is to fold to any bet.

Definition:
"Giving your opponent the odds to call." = Making a bet so that your opponent's pot odds are greater than his hand odds.

I think this is a debate about semantics. I know that you know what odds are, and all of that.

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wrong again. HIS odds are the odds that he will be able to make a hand that will win. HE DOES NOT KNOW YOUR HAND.

Lets say you have JJ and flop is JJTr. You will gladly give your opponent odds to draw to his straight with a KQ or even quads if he has TT. Based on your betting he is getting odds to call a given bet based on his ASSUMPTION that the hand he is drawing to will be a winning hand.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

Its hard to make a bet thats going to give your opponent "proper odds to continue the hand". What do you think they have that has enough outs to beat you by calling a 40% pot bet!! I'm not saying thats the right amount, but being concerned about letting them draw out on your cheaply is rarely a factor here, unless your bet is ridiculously small.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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Its hard to make a bet thats going to give your opponent "proper odds to continue the hand". What do you think they have that has enough outs to beat you by calling a 40% pot bet!! I'm not saying thats the right amount, but being concerned about letting them draw out on your cheaply is rarely a factor here, unless your bet is ridiculously small.

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Exactly.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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wrong again. HIS odds are the odds that he will be able to make a hand that will win.

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OK, this is the definition that I provided earlier:

Definition:
"Giving your opponent the odds to call." = Making a bet so that your opponent's pot odds are greater than his hand odds.

Tell me how that definition is wrong. Tell me what your definition is of "giving your opponent the odds to call."

And please understand, I'm not talking about this particular hand.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

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wrong again. HIS odds are the odds that he will be able to make a hand that will win.

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OK, this is the definition that I provided earlier:

Definition:
"Giving your opponent the odds to call." = Making a bet so that your opponent's pot odds are greater than his hand odds.

Tell me how that definition is wrong. Tell me what your definition is of "giving your opponent the odds to call."

And please understand, I'm not talking about this particular hand.

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i wasn't stating that you definition was wrong (not arguing semantics). i was stating that it is wrong to say that you can not give an opponent odds to call if they are drawing dead. This is what i was saying is wrong. You CAN give them odds to draw to a hand, even though they DON'T KNOW they are drawing dead, as in the example I used.

To say that giving an opponent odds to draw is -EV and that this is an ABSOLUTE, is incorrect, based on my point in the above paragraph.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

I don't really consider this to be a "too perfect" flop. It's a nice flop, a great flop even, but not a "perfect" flop. The only flops I consider "perfect" flops are those where the opponent has virtually no chance of catching up which to me would be in this case flopping the full house.

In those cases, I'll slow play the heck out of it. With a great flop like this, I play this very similar to how I would bet this if I had AK and missed. I would bet between 1/2 and 3/4 of the pot. Keeping your bets very similar no matter how good or bad a flop hits you will have the added benefit of keeping your opponents in the dark on the strength of your hand.

How often do you see someone check a great flop like this and then the scariest card in the deck(ie, a Jack) hits the turn and then Hero totally overbets the Turn which results in either a fold or a catastrophic loss.

If he's drawing, make him pay. If he's not drawing, you're not going to get paid off anyway.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

I make a standard 2/3 the pot bet. It's what I'm making if I miss the flop so I make it when I hit it. I know what you're saying. Betting this and having villain fold is such a waste but I'd rather win the pot now rather than see a jack fall and this guy hits his 4 outer. YEa checking is the worst of the 4 plays. Even a small bet is bad IMO. you'd be asking for trouble. I like either betting more than the pot or make it look like a standard c-bet.

Re: Too Perfect Flop -- What line do you take?
 

Not having a read on this player it is hard to say what to do. If I am playing with no read I will generally play may hand straight forward. Here I would bet 1/2 pot. Everyone expects you to bet so I would. That doesn't tell him anything other than you are following up with your preflop raise. He may still call here (or maybe even raise) with a pocket pair or AK b/c he thinks his hand is best. It will be hard to get a lot of money in this pot unless he has a big pocket pair thinking he is trapping you.