Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

Game is 5 handed.

big time fish limps UTG, I raise 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], folds to the BB (young kid, plays pretty aggressive/decent but seems spazzy and not a good reader)who calls, fish calls

Flop:

7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, fish checks, I bet, BB calls, fish folds

Turn:
5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb checks, I bet, bb calls but seems like he wants to raise...

River:

2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

bb checks, I bet, he raises....

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

Fold preflop, reraise river. The end.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

i cant fold that 5 handed preflop. limper is a 40/2/.25

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, reraise river. The end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

Preflop is fine. Limping is ok too.

Reraise river because it's too easy for your opponent to have just a five. If you have a good enough read you can even fold to a 4bet.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

raise again. the turn act like he wants to raise is just that: an act. he wants to scare you because he's thinking of showing down his A3 unimproved...

but oops oh wait it improved and he made his straight!
raise again.

oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

Such an easy re-raise on the river. If there is no cap then I'm definitely going five bets with this holding, given the action so far. I play preflop the same way against a fish of this calibre.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

5-betting would be terrible

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine. Limping is ok too.

Reraise river because it's too easy for your opponent to have just a five. If you have a good enough read you can even fold to a 4bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

You know that 86s doesnt play that well vs 40% vip right?

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

People in live games love calling so they can win. People in forums love folding so they can prove they don't lose.

Justin A's post is on spot, IMO. Raising is good. You can take a free-card whenever you like, and you isolate against the fish. If you have solid reads on him, you can get him to fold before the river (like when an ace flop and he doesn't have one).

I'm assuming call if four-bet, right?

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise again. the turn act like he wants to raise is just that: an act. he wants to scare you because he's thinking of showing down his A3 unimproved...

but oops oh wait it improved and he made his straight!
raise again.

oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

Was this hand really played live or do opponents have magical ptracker stats floating above their heads?

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

No no Mikey, people who say fold preflop realize that 86s has little showdown value and aggressive/decent big blinds don't let you isolate fishy limpers in short games. Of course the flop gave him the nuts so it's gotta be right right?

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Was this hand really played live or do opponents have magical ptracker stats floating above their heads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I wondered that too. My guess is he was just guestimating what the guy would be online.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
No no Mikey, people who say fold preflop realize that 86s has little showdown value and aggressive/decent big blinds don't let you isolate fishy limpers in short games. Of course the flop gave him the nuts so it's gotta be right right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Showdown value isn't as important when you're in position. You get to maximize value when you have the best hand and minimize when you don't. Turning profits in hold'em isn't always about getting to showdown.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

"aggressive/decent big blinds"

if this game was where the only 60 live game i know about is than the above asssumption is false, way false. and that's where youre wrong. you assumed the game is one way when it's really another.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

"Yeah I wondered that too."

i assumed it was a live hand from the moment i read the word "live" in the subject. this is not a very interesting hand but im just loving how right i am about it. i dont think the guy has a 5 because a 5 would c/r the turn almost alway. it's A3 im almost sure, with a rivered 22 fh being the second possibility.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Yeah I wondered that too."

i assumed it was a live hand from the moment i read the word "live" in the subject. this is not a very interesting hand but im just loving how right i am about it. i dont think the guy has a 5 because a 5 would c/r the turn almost alway. it's A3 im almost sure, with a rivered 22 fh being the second possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are so right its sick

The hand isnt that interesting but I wanted to make sure I played it bad. Ive had a few hands similar to this one.

My gut told me to 3 bet the river, but I just called. He gave me a speech about being double gutted on the flop(I didnt realize this during the hand) as he turned over A3.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise again. the turn act like he wants to raise is just that: an act. he wants to scare you because he's thinking of showing down his A3 unimproved...

but oops oh wait it improved and he made his straight!
raise again.

oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online.

[/ QUOTE ]

why not just limp, mike, w/ hands that play well multiway?

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

"why not just limp, mike, w/ hands that play well multiway?"

there is merit to seeing the flop 4 handed (sb always comes when it's one chip more to him) i admit but i like raising a bit more. some reasons:

--it balances your raises with premium starters. players cant assume a 743 flop or whatever missed you and play back.
--really bad players just need to be isolated constantly. they play their winning hands bad and their losing hands even worse and having position on them is so meaningful. just because you raise w/ 86 doesnt mean you pound away relentlessly no matter what. sometimes you give up after they call your flop bet, sometimes if the blinds come along you give up on the flop. sometimes you get tricky and represent a card that falls on the turn and get someone to laydown a winner. all these things can happen sometimes if you take the initiative preflop and raise it up. when you isolate a bad player you set up a scenario where you are playing the house in a heads up game with them where they have the worst of it. how can they have the worst of it if they have QT and you have 86? all the times they miss and draw and you charge them correctly (with or without a pair) and they muck on the end should overcome the times you end up spewing and giving them chips. position+expert play=oop fish loses all his chips. it's one of the finest things that can happen in live play. the fish are just sooo loose and passive and they never play back, they walk in the door expecting to dump off all their money. and they do.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
"why not just limp, mike, w/ hands that play well multiway?"

there is merit to seeing the flop 4 handed (sb always comes when it's one chip more to him) i admit but i like raising a bit more. some reasons:

--it balances your raises with premium starters. players cant assume a 743 flop or whatever missed you and play back.
--really bad players just need to be isolated constantly. they play their winning hands bad and their losing hands even worse and having position on them is so meaningful. just because you raise w/ 86 doesnt mean you pound away relentlessly no matter what. sometimes you give up after they call your flop bet, sometimes if the blinds come along you give up on the flop. sometimes you get tricky and represent a card that falls on the turn and get someone to laydown a winner. all these things can happen sometimes if you take the initiative preflop and raise it up. when you isolate a bad player you set up a scenario where you are playing the house in a heads up game with them where they have the worst of it. how can they have the worst of it if they have QT and you have 86? all the times they miss and draw and you charge them correctly (with or without a pair) and they muck on the end should overcome the times you end up spewing and giving them chips. position+expert play=oop fish loses all his chips. it's one of the finest things that can happen in live play. the fish are just sooo loose and passive and they never play back, they walk in the door expecting to dump off all their money. and they do.


[/ QUOTE ]

hey mike. thanks for the (thorough) response. good explanation. definitely some important things to consider.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

This is a low content bump, but I'm reading through all the old threads and wanted to say how great a post this is, Mike. Every time I read this forum it inspires me to go put in work (I normally feel like playing is drudgery). You guys are awesome.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

I appreciate your handle. Freaks and Geeks was the PWN. That being said Mike's post is more or less definite given the estimated pt stats/live vibe whatever. . . .

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise again. the turn act like he wants to raise is just that: an act. he wants to scare you because he's thinking of showing down his A3 unimproved...

but oops oh wait it improved and he made his straight!
raise again.

oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Thanks.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

Just a question, how is the low rake of this game a factor in your decision to raise 86s preflop?

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

No rake. its a time game

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just a question, how is the low rake of this game a factor in your decision to raise 86s preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

What % rake (of average pot) would you have to see at a table to make this a fold rather than a raise?

edit: fwiw, nh.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

"oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online"

I wonder how many people reading this suck at live holdem, play in tough games, and play online, since online-only players at this level almost certainly play in tough games and also would not have live experience. I think you wrote somewhere else that a poster was assuming that 12/8 players exist live, when they don't. That is so spot on.

Anyway your posts in this thread are excellent, thanks for sharing.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

I agree. Unless you're the type to pay off a 4th bet every time. In that case, a re-raise is dead wrong!

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online .

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise this online in this situation everytime.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

If he made his boat, congrats... but if you dont raise this river you should not be playing cards my friend.

Re: Whats your river line? 60-120 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Game is 5 handed.

big time fish limps UTG, I raise 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], folds to the BB (young kid, plays pretty aggressive/decent but seems spazzy and not a good reader)who calls, fish calls

Flop:

7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, fish checks, I bet, BB calls, fish folds

Turn:
5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bb checks, I bet, bb calls but seems like he wants to raise...

River:

2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

bb checks, I bet, he raises....

[/ QUOTE ]

You said he was a decent player, so he probably did not call the preflop raise with 52, 54, or 57, thus full house is very unlikely. Maybe A5 suited or something, or perhaps made a smaller straight. I vote reraise.

I also like folding preflop. Low suited one gap? And if you are going to play, why would you try to isolate with what could only be a drawing hand?