AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

My First 'New Thread Post' --
Let me know if I'm missing some proper posting etiquette etc.. or leave out useful info, or posting too much info.. Graci:

This is from the the last Live Tourney I played in (last saturady), where I was knocked out with AA in 2nd level. Early. Cheap 30$ buy-in 100 person NL Tourney that I had finished fourth in the last time I played.. Blinds Raise quick after the first hour.. To where they are ridiculous and taking whole stacks at the final table about an hour and a half later. Quick Tourney. Designed to maximize casino profit and open the tables back up for ring games quick I'd guess..

2nd level of tourney. Approx 6k Starting chips (somewhat odd amount..)

I played two hands so far.. One w/pocket 9's 4x from Button with one MP Limper -- He bet large on a 3 big card (10 +) flop and I folded.. and the other I limped in late w/suited connectors and folded flop when I missed.

My stack is currently slightly over 5k.. I'd say 5.1k

Blinds are 50/100

UTG: Hero: AA (suits: forgotten at this point)
(Here I think about it for a bit... and the last 3-4 hands there has been 1-2 raises preflop.. I don't wanna scare a lot out on a decent bet here assuming i'll get at least one raise that i can reraise or maximize +EV..)

Hero (I) limp.

UTG + 1 Limps (900 Chips left)( Loose Fish.. Playing/Raising decent hands preflop so far( except for this..) but seems to be unable to let go of hands and feels he must protect his hand regardless of how bad it misses the flop and of how many players are in...)

Folds around to.. Cut Off who limps..

Button Folds ( F!ck i think.. that didn't work..)

SB Raises 10x BB (Niice... )

BB Folds..

I Think for a moment and just call.. (This player has been very loose, Fish, Horrid.. And is also the current chipleader, and just watched him river an inside draw after calling an almost pot sized bet with nothing but the draw on the turn and an overcard two hands ago..I figure with how he plays, i'll trap him into betting the flop and push then.. )

UTG + 1: calls (and is all-in)

Folded around ...

Flop comes out Jh 3h 5d

SB bets out 100 into the 3k pot w/hand slightly shaking... (I sometimes do this when I bluff myself after playing NL live after not playing for awhile live... although I know it's commonly (caro) referred to as a sign of strength.. and the 100 bet into 3k pot???)

..Anyways.. I wasn't having it and bet out raised 900 more for 1k total.. he pushed all in.. I called.

He shows J3o .. f!ck me.

UTG +1 shows K9o (donkey..)

I don't improve...

Thoughts?

I checked for Poll.. But unsure of how to use it. Primarily I was wondering would you raise w/the AA here or play it as I did, limping ? .. After you saw SB Bet 1000 in preflop.. what would you do ? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

if youre going to limp, you should be limping with the intention of raising. aa is a good hand. build a pot with it. once he raises 10xBB, dont be greedy. stick all your chips in.

good players make a lot of money off of people who decide to get "tricky" with aces preflop only to be unable to get away from them after the flop.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

IF you're going to limp w/ AA, you should only be doing it with the intent of re-raising. Don't get greedy.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Even your reads say to make a good sized raise pf. You do not want several donks to see a cheap flop. Maybe the SB would have come over the top and closed out the betting back to you. Finally, you wanted a raise to re-raise and then you didn't. I really think you misplayed AA here pretty badly.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Just to re-interate what the other two posters said, RE-RAISE. The only reason to limp is to get the chance to re-raise. Especially with the shorty behind you who's obviously willing to put his chips in without much. Re-raise and go heads up with the shorty.

The pot is plenty big for you to take it down right now.

Peace

Goodie

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Once the big raise came preflop, you should have gotten all-in. As strong as AA is, you don't want to play against multiple hands with it, if you can avoid it.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Once the 10xBB raise happened, you should have pushed. If you didn't want to do that, to tempt Mr. K9 to call, whatever. Then when your opp bets 100 into the 3000 pot, your raise to 1000 is too small. He's getting 4.5-1 on his money, and you are giving him the correct odds to outdraw you in a lot of scenarios. Just push it in.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Ok.. Well it looks like everyone's pretty much agreed.. Reraise preflop..

And -- This was my original intent. To limp to have someone bet for me so I could reraise.. However... when it got down to SB and they raised that much ... I thought .. Either there completely f o s... or If they have a hand.. what could they have .. KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, and lower pocket pair .. etc.. which they'd defend on the flop, and I just figured I could more easily get them all in this way and maximize my +EV .. does that make sense...If you keep in mind the RAPID blind structure which starts at 25/50, and is 32/64k a little over 2.5 hours into the tourney.. I stopped for a minute and kinda saw this when he bet the 1k thinking maybe the UTG + 1 would call, and pretty positive the late limper would fold. .. I figured i could take his 1k + 200 for limpers now and maaybe the UTG + 1, but he still had 900 left and only 100 in the pot... Raise, Reraise.. as poor of a player as he was, don't know if he would of called that..

So either 1.2k or.. If I just called, if he did limp in that's almost 3.1k pot for the three of us.. or 2.2k for me and SB .. I figure w/any high pocket pair or almost anything he'll bet out heavily on the flop, and I can put him to the test and raise all in here .. taking another 4.1k .. Fully understanding i'm taking that extra risk though...

Does that make a little more sense per situation, or would you guys still defend it preflop as everyones suggested so far?

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

yawn

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Also note. only first few places pay out any decent money...

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

I'm OK w/ the preflop play - his raise looks like a "punish the limpers" play from the big stack (maybe w/ a decent hand like a mid pair or big A) and is big enough to discourage callers behind especially the cutoff, I'm OK w/ the loose shortie tagging along, and it was a big enough raise to take away implied odds of his outflopping you. Plus, he's OOP and is likely to lead on a whiff or call you down w/ a weaker hand (per your read).

On the flop I raise to 2k to take away any drawing odds (in case his $100 was a block on a draw) and plan to shove the rest in on the turn unless he wants it in on the flop.

The shaking hands was a textbook Caro tell but I don't have enough live experience that I would have altered my play - I'd have bit too (for all I know maybe he thought his KK or QQ was good).

This was a good spot to try to double up - you just got unlucky.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Thanks for the comment..

Nice to see at least one that fits my view of the situation a little better.

The 2k Strong Flop bet makes sense to me (2/3 pot is a common bet size) and this loose chip leader could call that w/a lot of hands ( Pocket Pairs above or under jacks even.. or any AJ, KJ, QJ hand...JJ has me dominated of course, but unlikely, And I have him dominated on any other more probable hand..) With a flop like J, 3, 5 I just can't assume he has the best of it.. The shaking hands and small bet I didn't like.. but definetedly could be something like KK, QQ, etc.. But i wasn't giving up my aces or not thinking I had the best of it on that flop...

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if youre going to limp, you should be limping with the intention of raising. aa is a good hand. build a pot with it. once he raises 10xBB, dont be greedy. stick all your chips in.

good players make a lot of money off of people who decide to get "tricky" with aces preflop only to be unable to get away from them after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cnnot agree with this enough. You slit your own throat. MOVE IT IN. This is exactly what you wanted to happen, play back at you preflop. Deer in the headlights, run him down!

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

If sb will almost always put out a decent bet on the flop, let him do it. Pushing almost certainly gets him to fold. If he'd raised less, then I'd agree you should probably reraise, but here it'll probably get heads up anyways. Call preflop, push the flop if he puts out a reasonable bet. With his 100 bet, I probably just play it like you did.

As for this:
[ QUOTE ]
good players make a lot of money off of people who decide to get "tricky" with aces preflop only to be unable to get away from them after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true, except for when the player puts in a fifth of his stack preflop. Good players make money off of people who put in 1/50th of their stack preflop with AA and then go broke on the flop regardless. Here, a good player makes far more by "getting tricky" and letting his opponent fire on the flop as well.

Steve

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

..This was my original intent until I saw the amount he raised too, and made the assumption from past plays he had made - that'd he fairly heavily fight for the pot thereafter.. allowing me to push all in (after the assumed strong bet from him) on the flop..

The preflop raise was for 1/5th of my stack.. and blinds go up FAST.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

The problem with waiting till the flop is it lets him fold hands that he's not folding preflop, such as AK, QQ-TT, etc.

If he has JJ and the flop is K-Q-7, you're screwed as far as getting the rest of the chips, but he's probably calling preflop.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

UTG limp and then you reraise a significant overbet - he puts you on what here and calls w/ what here? So if he's donkish enough to call w/ TT he'll lead the flop. His overbet most likely was a punish the limpers - only way to get more $ is to call and let him lead out. If he had made a normal raise I'd reraise here but he made a 10BB raise (~2x pot). Let him hang himself.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with waiting till the flop is it lets him fold hands that he's not folding preflop, such as AK, QQ-TT, etc.

If he has JJ and the flop is K-Q-7, you're screwed as far as getting the rest of the chips, but he's probably calling preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
(This player has been very loose, Fish, Horrid.. And is also the current chipleader, and just watched him river an inside draw after calling an almost pot sized bet with nothing but the draw on the turn and an overcard two hands ago..

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not too worried about him getting away from anything resembling a hand post-flop. I am worried about him folding J3o (or whatever garbage he's often raising with) preflop instead of putting out a big flop bet the 25/26 (or whatever) times he doesn't outflop you (or losing all the rest of his chips the 1/3 times he flops a J or 3).

Steve

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

You guys are right, I was forgetting that he was going to have the first bite, and will stab at most any flop representing. Thanks.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

i dunno, i dont like limping with aces in the first place, because i dont really limp with any hands, so its suspicious.

and i agree, calling here preflop isnt terrible, and the flop is a no brainer. i guess its just the idea of.... someone thats making this thread in the first place is fairly new at poker, otherwise you would understand that theres no reason not to go broke on this flop everytime. and for me, for someone new to poker... just raise with your good hands, ya know? try to learn proper abc poker before you start trying to play fancy with big hands. i just notice so much with good players this insatiable desire to raise with your marginal hands and to slowplay all your good hands, and you really dont need to do that. and it annoys me when friends or people i wanna help play silly [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno, i dont like limping with aces in the first place, because i dont really limp with any hands, so its suspicious.

and i agree, calling here preflop isnt terrible, and the flop is a no brainer. i guess its just the idea of.... someone thats making this thread in the first place is fairly new at poker, otherwise you would understand that theres no reason not to go broke on this flop everytime. and for me, for someone new to poker... just raise with your good hands, ya know? try to learn proper abc poker before you start trying to play fancy with big hands. i just notice so much with good players this insatiable desire to raise with your marginal hands and to slowplay all your good hands, and you really dont need to do that. and it annoys me when friends or people i wanna help play silly [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. FWIW I open-raise with AA here everytime, because I all but never open-limp. But given he did, and given the ridiculous 10xbb raise, I think this is a rare spot I would get "fancy" and just call.

Steve

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

..That's more of what I was looking at.

Thanks Steve.

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

..I'm fairly new to really getting into MTT's ..

But i've been playing poker for several years. After graduating college 2 years ago (CIS with honors).. I worked for a little while, didn't like it. Quit. Read Hold'Em For Advanced Players and For 6 months all I did was go sit at the bicycle club or other LA casino's at generally 4-8 tables, but anywhere from 2-4 to 10-20 ... I was making money consistantly, but couldn't take the swings when I had to pay rent and the new 2005 car i had bought while working.. amongst other bills... I started working again, and now I play online most days after work .. 3-6 tabling 2-4 or 3-6 tables and making consistant profit on usually Empire and UB right now..

Look for Akashra / Akashra777 .. Also HU in 20-50$ UB .. or in the STT's .. 20-50$

I've been getting into the MTT's more often though recently and played my first 100+ buy-in the Saturday before this actually - after winning the first 10 person SNG (12$) I played in for a TEC... Finished 8th in this out of 131 and ended up with 524$ .. my first one at 100+ tho..

So I wouldn't say i'm new .. but still I know I have a lot to learn tournament wise.. reading harrington v2 right now. and studying whenever i'm off calls here at work ; ) ..

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

Thanks. and ya once again.. I limped with the intention of raising a bet.. but his position and bet size and style (acknowledging the probable bet to protect postflop..) is what swayed me into just calling..

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

..Exactly. : )

Re: AA UTG beat by J3o (10x Raise by J3 Preflop)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dunno, i dont like limping with aces in the first place, because i dont really limp with any hands, so its suspicious.

and i agree, calling here preflop isnt terrible, and the flop is a no brainer. i guess its just the idea of.... someone thats making this thread in the first place is fairly new at poker, otherwise you would understand that theres no reason not to go broke on this flop everytime. and for me, for someone new to poker... just raise with your good hands, ya know? try to learn proper abc poker before you start trying to play fancy with big hands. i just notice so much with good players this insatiable desire to raise with your marginal hands and to slowplay all your good hands, and you really dont need to do that. and it annoys me when friends or people i wanna help play silly [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. FWIW I open-raise with AA here everytime, because I all but never open-limp. But given he did, and given the ridiculous 10xbb raise, I think this is a rare spot I would get "fancy" and just call.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is results-oriented everyone saying the flat call was bad. The guy makes a big raise from the blinds at limpers, indicating he may be trying to steal the pot now or on the flop. Combine that with a read that he is a loose fish.

Now he is probably not making the big raise with QQ-KK. He could do this with JJ or AK, and he would probably call the limpraise with those hands. However, he is not calling a limpraise with J3o or a lot of stealing hands. When you flat call, he will probably fire at the pot whatever. If he catches a J without a 3, he probably doubles you up.

Now the fact that the short stack called causes a problem by creating a dry sidepot, so you may not get a lot of action if the flop doesn't hit the raiser.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1506482
pokenum -h js 3d - ah ac
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 3d 216131 12.62 1490150 87.03 6023 0.35 0.128
Ac Ah 1490150 87.03 216131 12.62 6023 0.35 0.872