Who\'s with me?
 

BB here is 93/9/1 over about 100 hands this session. He doesn't fold PF ever and doesn't fold flops ever. He has been randomly extremely aggressive but not often. About half the time he has the goods, and half complete air.

MP is 36/6 and generally fairly passive without a pretty strong hand.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero folds?

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

oh , I thought you check/raised at first and thought this was horrible.

and no I dont fold, I call and donk if I hit.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I cant fold there scotty. I'd donk a rivered flush and check call if u pair up.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I check raise the flop. A bet won't likely win you the pot right away and you've got a ton of equity on the flop. Get as much money in on the flop as possible to make your life easier on the turn. On the turn your getting 8:2 which + at least 1 BB implied odds. Its close to fold b/c your pair outs aren't any good. I think its fine to fold here as MP is pretty huge and the pot is small.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I don't like betting that flop if there is zero chance you'll buy it outright. Given your description of BB I don't see the value.

On the turn you're getting 4-1, so he only has to actually have J5, 56, or a better flush draw a small fraction to make a fold correct. This is of course assuming that he's incapable of this raise with A6 or some pocket pair that leaves you with pair outs. If he's ever got 99 here then you have to call.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

The fold seems good to me. MP's got a monster of some sort, I think. (When a passive player cold-calls the flop and then pops the turn, I get very worried.) Would he call two cold on the flop in a small pot with bottom pair? If not, it's looking like there's a very good chance you're drawing dead versus a boat or quads.

To be honest, I'm not sure why people are even bringing up pair outs. Look at the action. Unless the passive guy is making use of his read on the super-loose guy and is making a play (and I doubt it), the main question is how often your flush is going to be good if you hit it.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

"I don't like betting that flop if there is zero chance you'll buy it outright. Given your description of BB I don't see the value."



but we have an equity edge so don't we get value for every bet that goes in?

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I don't really think he has any pair outs. I just said that because vs lots of players you will have pair outs and will have to call. I agree that he's probably good to muck here though.

re:the flop equity edge.

we only have an edge if the following are true
1)no one has a set
2)no one has a better draw
3)all four other players put a bet into the pot.

number three is the key, and when the action goes bet/raise we should puke twice because we just set up the action to drive the equity away from us. The perfect action with an equity edge would be for us to check, bb to bet, everyone to call, and us to checkraise the field.

If BB bets and dudes start folding then our equity edge on the bet goes out the window and we should just call. This is why pumping draws is so difficult in shorthaned games as opposed to full ring ones - its very difficult to guarantee multiway action that is both profitable and safe for our draw. In full ring its entirely possible for 5 or 6 guys to still be hanging on after the flop - and it is more in those situations than in these that we should be pumping - especially with non A or K draws.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I play it the same. You're getting 9:2 at best directly. Since u have to lead a river frush, u can maximaly get 11:2 on the turn w/ implied. You have, at most, 8 outs, so u need to get 4.75:1 or greater on the turn, so I think folding is def best when u consider all the not so good scenarios. Surprised most peeps are calling.

Flop i would c/c with this cast, but leading is fine too.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

Very nice post guruman.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very nice post guruman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for his inability to count. But we can forgive him [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

yeah, i don't count so goot. thats why I don't play live. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I'm a little surprised by the number of folks who said call the turn. We now have multiple people waking up in a multiway pot, including a passive, not extremely loose player who cold-called the prior street. The chance that he's coming to life with a 5x hand is not a huge possibility. Although we may not be drawing dead, our flush outs should be pretty steeply discounted, IMO. I would probably call 2 here anyway closing the action, since we should have enough in implied odds even discounting the flush outs. But the fact that we're not closing the action pretty easily seals the deal for me towards a fold.

Regarding the flop bet, I think it's fine. Yeah, the worst possible guy popped it, but a lot of times, you'll get a peel or two and no one popping it. I don't think that you need to take it down then and there for the bet to be correct, and in fact, you have some more FE on the turn since you did lead into a 4 way flop, if you got a single caller.

So, all in all, to answer the title of the OP, I'm with you on this one [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

Yeah I think folding the turn is the only way to go here. I would typically donk the flop as well, but Guruman has brought up an interesting point.. However, I doubt it makes much of a difference whether you C/C or B/C there.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little surprised by the number of folks who said call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so if u're going to criticize others (like I did), at least make better sense. I'm gonna be the logic police today.

[ QUOTE ]
We now have multiple people waking up in a multiway pot, including a passive, not extremely loose player who cold-called the prior street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think u can really say that BB is "waking up" when he raised the flop and is, for all intents and purposes, mentally disabled.

[ QUOTE ]
The chance that he's coming to life with a 5x hand is not a huge possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[ QUOTE ]
Although we may not be drawing dead, our flush outs should be pretty steeply discounted, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

By how much? 10%/ 20%/ 50%? What?, do the math and figure out what a good threshold number would be for making calling profitable/ not profitable. No peeking at my math.

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably call 2 here anyway closing the action, since we should have enough in implied odds even discounting the flush outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you EVER call two cold, closing the action. Maybe live, but I digress.

[ QUOTE ]
But the fact that we're not closing the action pretty easily seals the deal for me towards a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding the flop bet, I think it's fine. Yeah, the worst possible guy popped it, but a lot of times, you'll get a peel or two and no one popping it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it so bad that a maniac raised it? It's what maniacs do, if it were somebody else, I would be less happy. At least with him, ur pair outs are more than likely good and you're guaranteed more action if u hit. With this crew, it doesn't sound like too many hands went w/o SD.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that you need to take it down then and there for the bet to be correct, and in fact, you have some more FE on the turn since you did lead into a 4 way flop, if you got a single caller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this crew, I don't think he has all that much FE. More importantly, ur not considering the reverse, what happens when he bets into one caller on the turn and gets raised. Betting the flop and generating more FE, does not necessarily mean that this will make the turn +EV (or really the flop/ turn have a greater EV than playing passively), but this is difficult to really calculate.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

c/c flop. You have no fold equity, and only the perfect conditions have to arise for a bet to be for value. It's a pretty tiny mistake to bet though.

as played,
c/f turn. I think calling here is a big mistake.

The board is paired, the action isn't closed, you're draw isnt even to the nut flush, and MP's line/style indicate a monster. You're immediate odds 4:1 don't even jutsify a call. I'm amazed at all the people advocating a call here.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

Some good points. I'm afraid of trying to do all the quotes within quotes, so I'll try a different format.

Me: "I'm a little surprised by the number of folks who said call the turn.
Response: "Ok, so if u're going to criticize others (like I did), at least make better sense."
Well, I didn't really mean it as criticism, I was honestly surprised. I don't think that I have all the answers, and especially lately haven't been playing much at all. The folks I work with would probably tell you that it's pretty clear when I'm actually criticizing [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], and I'm honestly not here. But as to making better sense, the folks at work would also tell you I could stand to do that a lot more, too.

Me: "We now have multiple people waking up in a multiway pot, including a passive, not extremely loose player who cold-called the prior street."
Response: "I don't think u can really say that BB is "waking up" when he raised the flop and is, for all intents and purposes, mentally disabled. "
Good point about BB, and we should be less worried about him (but we still can't discount him completely, IMO).

Me: "The chance that he's coming to life with a 5x hand is not a huge possibility. "
Response: "Why not?"
First, I was talking about MP, not sure if that was clear. With a VPIP of 36, while he could still open from MP with a 5 in his hand, it's more likely to not be a 5 (although it could still be a suited connector or even a 55 hand, of course). My point was that I'm more afraid of a 5 from the super-loose player than someone with a 36 VPIP. And of course if all he has is a 5, the flush outs are good. If he made a set on the flop or two pair with a 65 suited connector, we're in more trouble. This is opposed to say a jack pairing instead of a 5, in which case trips is more likely (but the flush outs are cleaner).

Me: "I would probably call 2 here anyway closing the action, since we should have enough in implied odds even discounting the flush outs."
Response: "How can you EVER call two cold, closing the action. Maybe live, but I digress."
Uh, yeah. Maybe that's why my win rate isn't as high as I'd like [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

Me: "Regarding the flop bet, I think it's fine. Yeah, the worst possible guy popped it, but a lot of times, you'll get a peel or two and no one popping it."
Response: "Why is it so bad that a maniac raised it? It's what maniacs do, if it were somebody else, I would be less happy. At least with him, ur pair outs are more than likely good and you're guaranteed more action if u hit. With this crew, it doesn't sound like too many hands went w/o SD."
I meant that it's bad from the fact that the whole rest of the field is faced with calling 2 bets cold, and we'd prefer them not to be, since we're not going to win this hand UI. And in general situations, I don't think it's bad at all to lead a flop with a flush draw 4 way in an unraised pot. And yeah I agree with you, in this specific hand, BB's raise by itself on the flop is not scaring me much.

Me: "I don't think that you need to take it down then and there for the bet to be correct, and in fact, you have some more FE on the turn since you did lead into a 4 way flop, if you got a single caller."
Response: "Against this crew, I don't think he has all that much FE. More importantly, ur not considering the reverse, what happens when he bets into one caller on the turn and gets raised. Betting the flop and generating more FE, does not necessarily mean that this will make the turn +EV (or really the flop/ turn have a greater EV than playing passively), but this is difficult to really calculate."
Again, I was talking about the general situation of leading into 3 other players in an unraised pot. In this specific hand, I agree that FE is less of a concern and that it's difficult to determine the EV of a more passive flop line. But betting is more fun.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

Fold bad, call good.

Re: Who\'s with me?
 

I am not betting this flop when I have no chance to win. The last thing I want is someone raising me and confronting other players with two bets.

I fold the turn because the odds just aren't there given the weakness of my flush draw and the serious risk of being reraised or even capped.

Two very unpleasant possible hands for MP aside from the obvious monsters:

1. Top pair + flush draw.

2. Nut flush draw - Villain is trying to promote his hand by isolating the bluffer.

Someone suggested that we must call if there is any chance that MP has 99. Not necessarily true because our pair outs are only good if we can get a free showdown. We do not have adequate odds to call the river with a pair of tens.