3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Jam's game is extremely solid. I have him at like 23/20 or something, I consider him one of the toughest midstakes players in the game. Button is a donk, if he outflopped me then so be it. He has a really wide range here and is probably destroyed.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $767.80
Hero: $660
CO: $756.70
Button: $765.60
SB: $551.20
BB: $727.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $21</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $66</font>, CO folds, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($207, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $165</font>, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in $701.8</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero?</font>

Obv he has a draw, a set, or a really strong overpair. Whats the plan?

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

at first i was like wtf calllll, but pot is protected and he should know he has like absolutly no fe, i think i can find a fold here. esp since he will be calling any pp closing the action pf.

EDIT: i also assume he 4-bets qq/kk pf because of the donk, and i think he folds jj to our flop bet.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Uh, instacall?

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Just put him on KK and get it over with, call.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

I'd probably call. I expect to be quite a bit behind his range, but we're getting like 3:1 here right? I think he shows up with a combo draw or KK enough of the time to make this a call.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

rofl it went raise re-raise preflop, the flop is 7 high and you have aces. SNAP CALL.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

If his range is a draw, a set, or an overpair, it seems like a ridiculously easy call. You've got ~65% equity vs a draw, 80% vs an overpair (most likely hand), and 8% vs a set with a ton of dead money in the pot. I can't see why you'd ever seriously consider folding here if you think his range is that wide. It's not like you're deep (110BB) or that the c/r is giving you bad odds (looks like you're getting better than 2:1 here).

PS - I'm super drunk right now and watching the Seahawks play horrible football but still somehow have the lead, so if my math or estimates are wrong, whatever. But if your handrange is even close to right (even weighted) it's still a call.

Rob

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

the bb makes it less likely he is bluffing, but he still does this with flush draws and big PP's so we kinda have to call.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

I guess the source of my confusion was whether or not Jam would make this move with a draw with the donk in
i.e. is he using the donk for dead money to pad his drawing odds, or did he c/r to squeeze as much money out of the donk and try to rope us both into the pot?

btw, just cause his range is a strong overpair, a set, or a draw doesnt mean there is equal probability of each of those. My concern is how likely he (or other TAG players) are to have each of these holdings in this situation.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Also something to think about, if you both know the guy in the middle is retarded, he could be "bluffing" with a hand that is better than the donk's but worse than yours.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Fold, he has AK.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, instacallSHIPITHOLLAPOSTONBBVCRUCIAL

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

okay, let me phrase this simply

two questions:
1) what is the breakdown of a very strong players hand range percentagewise here? Assume my table image is TAG and not overly out of line, although I would 3bet from the blinds with a wide range.
2) What am I doing in this situation with KK? QQ? JJ?

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay, let me phrase this simply

two questions:
1) what is the breakdown of a very strong players hand range percentagewise here? Assume my table image is TAG and not overly out of line, although I would 3bet from the blinds with a wide range.

What is villain's ATS? This might not seem relevant, but it is. How light does he call 3bets? This might seem relevant, and it is.


2) What am I doing in this situation with KK? QQ? JJ?

Depends on his range. If you never want to lose a big pot you can fold all of them. I'd call with AA/KK, call with QQ sometimes but not very often, and fold JJ nearly always.


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

You have aces with a ton of money in pre vs. JAM and a DONK. Wtf.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

you have to call here, especially with the donk's dead money in there

i can see QQ, KK here, maybe JJ if you 3-bet him light (probably doubtful since its utg raise, then you raise utg+1.)

a draw is possible, i mean if he has a combo draw here theres so much money and equity in the pot he might as well stick it in on the flop

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is villain's ATS?

[/ QUOTE ]
what is an ATS?
Generally he doesnt call my 3bets, so I am going to assume he has either a strong PF hand or a good spec. hand that he is trying to break me with.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is villain's ATS?

[/ QUOTE ]
what is an ATS?
Generally he doesnt call my 3bets, so I am going to assume he has either a strong PF hand or a good spec. hand that he is trying to break me with.

[/ QUOTE ]

the hands he's calling your 3-bet with expand very wide with the button, due to the fact he's probably the fish in the game + the increased pot odds

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is villain's ATS?

[/ QUOTE ]
what is an ATS?
Generally he doesnt call my 3bets, so I am going to assume he has either a strong PF hand or a good spec. hand that he is trying to break me with.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much of a blind thief is he?

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

nh!

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
at first i was like wtf calllll, but pot is protected and he should know he has like absolutly no fe, i think i can find a fold here. esp since he will be calling any pp closing the action pf.

EDIT: i also assume he 4-bets qq/kk pf because of the donk, and i think he folds jj to our flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you fold AA here you should quit poker.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Fold- i think 77. If he's completely solid, he puts u on overpair and is gambling with something like 45s, but I assume low pockets b/c he raised UTG preflop, and called pf reraise for set value. Against almost anyone I call, but if you consider this guy completely solid, smart, and tough pretty much 100% fold.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
but if you consider this guy completely solid, smart, and tough pretty much 100% fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

please pick instacall, slowrolling is just unethical

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, instacall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

you guys, I didn't fold and I'm not gonna fold, that wasn't really what I was trying to get at


how often does jam have a set, a draw, and an overpair, and how does my hand strength change if I have KK/QQ/JJ

that is my question

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys, I didn't fold and I'm not gonna fold, that wasn't really what I was trying to get at


how often does jam have a set, a draw, and an overpair, and how does my hand strength change if I have KK/QQ/JJ

that is my question

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll have to access his PT or ask him.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys, I didn't fold and I'm not gonna fold, that wasn't really what I was trying to get at


how often does jam have a set, a draw, and an overpair, and how does my hand strength change if I have KK/QQ/JJ

that is my question

[/ QUOTE ]

the strength of your hand primarilly is indicated by the distance between the top card on the board and your pair

as the size of your pair goes down so does the strength of your hand but it's opponent and read dependent

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
please pick instacall, slowrolling is just unethical

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya if you don't want to trap the button, I guess you just play bad. Anyone who doesn't wait at least 2 seconds is a fish.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please pick instacall, slowrolling is just unethical

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya if you don't want to trap the button, I guess you just play bad. Anyone who doesn't wait at least 2 seconds is a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

eagles yo sorry i just don't get good hands quick enough to wait two seconds because i never know when teh internets is going to go out fo real

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

i guess we have to make these weighted hand ranges on our own and without the help of 2p2ers

i'd guess that a really solid TAG has a set 40% of the time here, a draw like 40% and an overpair like 20%

anyway jam had 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and i held up

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

I would personally wait about 3 sec before making this call.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

jam will almost never do this with KK.... he has a set or FD

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would personally wait about 0.3 sec before making this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, instacall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

Normally I think you should fold here vs me actually, as it happened I was on tilt so it's an ez call.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I think you should fold here vs me actually, as it happened I was on tilt so it's an ez call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Metagame?

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
jam will almost never do this with KK.... he has a set or FD

[/ QUOTE ]

he wont? ive seen him do such things...

id call this real fast.

Re: 3/6 AA vs Jam
 

[ QUOTE ]
Button is a donk, if he outflopped me then so be it. He has a really wide range here

[/ QUOTE ]
I was the donk here (and by the way, that characterization was a poor one if you wanted the best possible responses to your thread). I do recognize an UTG/UTG+1 re-raise when I see one, so it should be obvious my range is almost exactly { QQ }... with a sprinkling of JJ/KK/AA/AcKc, I suppose.

I think Jam knows this, which should make his hand look stronger (and the semibluff itself, worse, since I would have called if you had folded).