1-for-4?
 

These days I'm comfortable in the 20-40 game unless the 40 is so good I can't bring myself not to sit. Last night was one of those games.

CAZ 40-80.

Regular, who thinks he's very good but, to put it gently, has misconceptions about poker that permeate every aspect of his game, straddles. Two very loose donating types call. I three-bet right behind him in EMP with As 8c. A winning young regular, who has made some strange-seeming plays but is almost certainly a strong player and possibly expert, immediately and confidently calls three cold right behind me. The straddler four-bets blind and we all call.

Five to the flop for four bets and I have A8o. Whoops.

Flop Ks Qs 6h. Straddler bets dark, both tourists call in a manner that indicates to me they have nothing, I call, young winner calls.

Turn 8d. Straddler bets dark, both tourists fold, I raise.

The rest of the hand is less interesting, at least strategically:

The straddler says "Oh, now I have to look, Nate!" and squeezes his cards then grins at me and calls. I've logged a few hours with this guy and I would bet serious money he has a hand but can't beat a king. A queen seems most likely. I decide to call a single bet on the river, because then I'd know my physical read was wrong and he had 2 pair+ or some bust hand, and to check behind if he checks because bluffing would be hopeless. Of course I catch a gorgeous 8 on the river and he checks and I bet. Usually I don't post results in OPs but you can probably guess that I won the pot, he flipped out a little, and I got tons of action for the rest of the night. (But even so, I have more information to share later.)

--Nate

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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Five to the flop for four bets and I have A8o. Whoops.


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I hate when this happends.

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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Of course I catch a gorgeous 8 on the river

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I love when this happends.

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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I three-bet right behind him in EMP with As 8c.

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I hate when this happens.

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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I three-bet right behind him in EMP with As 8c.

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I hate when this happens.

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Both limpers are playing >80% of their hands. Does this change anything? Actually, my best guesses of the ranges are something like 80% and 86%.

--Nate

Re: 1-for-4?
 

Nate.Why did you raise pre-flop?

Re: 1-for-4?
 

Nate,

I think the preflop play is absolutely horrible. If you do some basic equities on your hand vs. 2 random hands (given that the two coldcallers don't have great hands but you can't eliminate some "premiums" either) then your equity isn't horrible, but once you consider that you still have several people left to act, your average equity goes down quite a bit.

I think you'll be getting yourself in a lot more trouble raising than you would be by folding, and I don't think it's particularly close given your position and the fact that you still have to win the hand, even when you manage to get some folds behind you.

Rob

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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Five to the flop for four bets and I have A8o.

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Yeah, but your original plan was 4 to the flop for 3 bets each with A-8o, and that's not so great either.

Re: 1-for-4?
 

Nate, I think there are a lot of better spots to spray chips than this hand. I'd never make it to the turn but after that I think you played it fine.

Re: 1-for-4?
 

Well, in the flop was an easy call, with an overcard and the backdoor nut flush, because the pot was very big.

Preflop it's a bad raise. If you play against very bad people you can raise with worse hands, but A8o it's too bad, unless you are in CO or the button, and even then I don't think raising is a good move.

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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Nate,

I think the preflop play is absolutely horrible. If you do some basic equities on your hand vs. 2 random hands (given that the two coldcallers don't have great hands but you can't eliminate some "premiums" either) then your equity isn't horrible, but once you consider that you still have several people left to act, your average equity goes down quite a bit.

I think you'll be getting yourself in a lot more trouble raising than you would be by folding, and I don't think it's particularly close given your position and the fact that you still have to win the hand, even when you manage to get some folds behind you.

Rob

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Rob --

Yeah, I think this is about right. I was hoping for people to have something to say about the flop or turn, but I don't think that there's too much to say about either of them, and anyhow, the money I'd win or lose by, say, folding the flop is probably insignificant compared to the expectation I lost by not folding preflop.

Amusing side-note: the guy right behind me claimed to have folded a king. Yikes.

Thanks for tolerating this thread, everyone.

--Nate

Re: 1-for-4?
 

Nate,

Your problem on both the flop and the turn is that you're multi-way with a heads up hand. You don't have good reads because the raising has been devalued.

I'll go along with others, flop is an easy fold. The “young winner” behind you makes this really easy to drop. Turn is a fold if you believe your read of Q or better. The river is great on a lot of levels.

You mentioned the bad cold callers being a plus in this hand. I've played in a lot of games with staddlers, and I think they're a big minus. They'll never fold when you want them to, so you need a good drawing hand. Based on your description, they'll never fold PF and your hand hates the action.

Hope you get more chances to practice your straddle defense against this lineup…

Doug

Re: 1-for-4?
 

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Nate,

Your problem on both the flop and the turn is that you're multi-way with a heads up hand. You don't have good reads because the raising has been devalued.

I'll go along with others, flop is an easy fold. The “young winner” behind you makes this really easy to drop. Turn is a fold if you believe your read of Q or better. The river is great on a lot of levels.

You mentioned the bad cold callers being a plus in this hand. I've played in a lot of games with staddlers, and I think they're a big minus. They'll never fold when you want them to, so you need a good drawing hand. Based on your description, they'll never fold PF and your hand hates the action.

Hope you get more chances to practice your straddle defense against this lineup…

Doug

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Doug --

Thanks.

Preflop is obviously terrible. I overestimated my capabilities against uberloose limpers.

The flop, I think, is sort of interesting, because one guy has a random hand and two guys actually have worse-than-random hands, because they call almost anything preflop and have given off weak tells postflop and just called. I'm actually fine with my flop call.

I didn't get the read on the turn until after I raised, because he didn't look at his cards until then. But a (literally) random hand bets and I have a pair and the pot is big. No way I can't raise, right?

--Nate

Re: 1-for-4?
 

My only complaint on the flop is the guy behind you who should have you beat. If he's good, he knows no-one is folding and expects there might be a raise from the straddler PF. He hasn't acted, and I fear his hand if he keeps calling. How would you play if you were in his chair?

On the turn, you're still out of position vs. the good player behind. I guess you're at raise or fold, so... I guess I agree, but what happens if the good player calls?

You could have been ahead the whole way. I agree with everything you said about your reasoning except I don't think it matters as much how you play against the straddler (and his tell makes you more correct). Once you add a rational player to the mix and the flop comes with two paint cards, I'm looking for excuses to dump. Once you start pairing and you’re still getting tells of weakness from the field, I think you have to play it like you did.

If you had managed to get heads-up with the straddler, I’d say you played it in text-book fashion. For all my whining about a couple of spots in the hand, I love playing in a game with a straddle because you get to play hands just the way you did. You’ve got a guy dark betting who allows you to play junk like it was rockets.

GL,

Doug