Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again.

ok my question:




I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops.

There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour.

The minimum wage is $6 per hour.

Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you must seriously hate poor people. How many hobos have you murdered?

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you must seriously hate poor people. How many hobos have you murdered?

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man, the OP is really stupid. Or are just going to ignore that because he happens to defend youre position?

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You suck at hypotheticals.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you must seriously hate poor people. How many hobos have you murdered?

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man, the OP is really stupid. Or are just going to ignore that because he happens to defend youre position?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see what's so stupid about it. It's a hypothetical. Hypotheticals don't have to be perfect reflections of reality to make a point.

And it's more that CaptainFreedom's point is still really anti-poor-people. OP has jobs that he can offer at $4.50 an hour. Workers come and want to work for that wage. It's hard to see a rationale for forcibly preventing this other than a vicious dislike of humanity.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you must seriously hate poor people. How many hobos have you murdered?

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man, the OP is really stupid. Or are just going to ignore that because he happens to defend youre position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is stupid. How about that.

Are you telling me that there are ZERO jobs that have a maximum value of $5 per hour that still provide a NET GAIN to the economy?

The problem with economics is that even with an example this simple, people still manage to confuse it and [censored] it up; see the 1st reply to the thread.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

on youre hypothetical you are basically giving away free money, thats like saying you cant donate 4 dollars to charity because of minimum wage.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]

Your post is stupid. How about that.

Are you telling me that there are ZERO jobs that have a maximum value of $5 per hour that still provide a NET GAIN to the economy?

The problem with economics is that even with an example this simple, people still manage to confuse it and [censored] it up; see the 1st reply to the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

The negative externality of these jobs might be more costly than the positive (minor) benefit. Not to mention that even if such jobs are illegal, you could easily just set it up under the table if you have enough incentive.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, there should be no laws forbidding you to hire them.

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot afford to operate at a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]Then the pennies shall remain buried until the minimum wage is lowered, or you get a special exemption from the law.

Mickey Brausch

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
on youre hypothetical you are basically giving away free money, thats like saying you cant donate 4 dollars to charity because of minimum wage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read it again.

It's not free money. It has to be EXTRACTED.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your post is stupid. How about that.

Are you telling me that there are ZERO jobs that have a maximum value of $5 per hour that still provide a NET GAIN to the economy?

The problem with economics is that even with an example this simple, people still manage to confuse it and [censored] it up; see the 1st reply to the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

The negative externality of these jobs might be more costly than the positive (minor) benefit. Not to mention that even if such jobs are illegal, you could easily just set it up under the table if you have enough incentive.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? What negative externality?

The positive benefit is not MINOR. If I hire 100 people to do it at $4.50 an hour I make $50 an hour. That is not minor.

I also am employing 100 people. That is also not minor.

Please tell me about the negative externality that is more important than these "minor" benefits.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Well your hypothetical is pretty dumb because you haven't given enough detail to the scenario. I'm assuming this magic pennyfield is in present day US correct? Because if so I'm hiring those brown peoples that do crappy jobs like picking lettuce and slaughtering/packaging meat. What is the cost of living around this area of bleak land? I'm sure the cost of vegetables and everyday things will be at a premium so would everyday Americans even want that job? Would there even be 450 americans living around this desert?
You can't find 400,000 americans to pick fruit in california during the harvest season so why the hell would they want to lug hundreds of pounds of pennies around a hot desert in 105+ degree heat?

Edit: If this takes place in AC Land or Libertopia the answer is always "I'm hiring the savage remnants of the US Military to do my bidding. Then I will enslave your family to work the magic penny fields."

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

I will just change the hypothetical to you make $0.5 per worker and ure offering them $4.50. I just have a problem with a billion pennies being hidden on a desert.
Also in the example above they are actually paying you 50 cents an hour, so how about they hire you for 50 dollars an hour, that was easy. problem solved.

But suppose that they cant do that, in that very specific case then you are correct.
Also Xorbie is right that such clear cut cases you can always do it illegaly.
However I dont know what negative market externabilitis is he talking about.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Actually screw it I'm changing my answer to I hate the poor.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again.

ok my question:




I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops.

There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour.

The minimum wage is $6 per hour.

Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]3 things.
We should deprecate the use of the penny.
You should depend on private charity for your 50 bucks an hour. Private charities are better than lack of government programs to assist starving capitalists.
What if it wasn't a minimum wage law that prevented profitability for your product. But a safety regulation imposed by a business bureau. Do you demand the right to be listed favoraibly in the business bureau's directory? By owning 50 arces of land in the desert you agreed to terms of the nation containing the land. This voluntary transaction is the cause of your delema. You assumed the risk that the venture of penny extraction would be profitable when you purchased the land. You should not be able to pass the lose for your slight miscalculation on to the employee. Bad business decisions should be paid for by the capitalist. after all that is the only reason why I can see the capitalist deserving any money. It's the assumption of risk.

I do believe you should be able to get the goverment to subsidize the extra cash needed for your business to meet the minimum wage requirements.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

well that job (even ignoring the fact that adding dollars to the economy doesn't help), is an opportunity cost for the society we live in today. there are many many many jobs available that would pay more than 4.50 an hour and that would produce value way more than 5.00 an hour.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

government shouldn't subsidize because there are many jobs that would still benefit companies at higher rates. the penny finding job is not as productive as other available jobs.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

The simple solution is to hire illegal aliens during off peak fruit picking season.

Jimbo

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Sorry but the replies to this are priceless.

Valenzuela I do not trust your reading comprehension. DougShrapnel what does private charity have to do with anything???

Assume the pennies are a good (fruit, vegetables, whatever). If I am allowed to hire these workers I am CREATING $500 per hour in wealth. Surely this cannot be bad.

I pose a simple scenario and the people who don't like it are not making coherant responses. Every response says either "do something illegal" or "change the terms of the scenario".


2 points:

If you don't think there are people willing to work for $5 pr hour than you have no credibility with me.

This situation is highly analagous to the agriculture industry. Simply replace the pennies with strawberries. If not for government subsidies the [censored] would hit the fan as there are many jobs in agriculture that are simply NOT worth >$5.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Existing minimum wage law accounts for the OP's hypothetical. You are allowed to hire someone for less than the minimum wage if other income will bring their wage above the minimum. Waitresses are typically paid less than minimum wage and are expected to earn more in tips. The OP would only have to pay his penny pickers 15 cents/hour.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Existing minimum wage law accounts for the OP's hypothetical. You are allowed to hire someone for less than the minimum wage if other income will bring their wage above the minimum. Waitresses are typically paid less than minimum wage and are expected to earn more in tips. The OP would only have to pay his penny pickers 15 cents/hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot pay them more than $5 per hour without losing money.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Existing minimum wage law accounts for the OP's hypothetical. You are allowed to hire someone for less than the minimum wage if other income will bring their wage above the minimum. Waitresses are typically paid less than minimum wage and are expected to earn more in tips. The OP would only have to pay his penny pickers 15 cents/hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agricuture receives several exemptions that non-agriculture does not. In many cases, they are not required to pay minimum wage. They know the OP example is a problem.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

You don't have to. Do they get to keep the pennies? If so, you can count the $5/hour they are pulling out of the ground against the minimum wage. It's also completely legal to hang a "free pennies" sign on your fence and invite people to pick pennies for free.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

Here in Florida there's often seen a road sign, "State Prisoners Working". Just warms my heart too.

Since your job can't be filled with regular labor thanks to a form of government takings, it seems just that they might allow you to hire prisoners at $1/hr plus some nominal supervisory costs.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just have a problem with a billion pennies being hidden on a desert.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems to be a stumbling block for a lot of people so just picture it being tiny bits of gold, or silver, or coal, or whatever other natural resource man digs up from the ground.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to. Do they get to keep the pennies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he pay someone to take his valuable resources away? When a gold mining company hires gold miners, do they get to keep the gold?

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to. Do they get to keep the pennies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he pay someone to take his valuable resources away? When a gold mining company hires gold miners, do they get to keep the gold?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I understood from the OP is that each workes find 500 pennies and then they must give 50 to the OP, but aparently Im retarded.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to. Do they get to keep the pennies?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he pay someone to take his valuable resources away? When a gold mining company hires gold miners, do they get to keep the gold?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I understood from the OP is that each workes find 500 pennies and then they must give 50 to the OP, but aparently Im retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah, they will keep *some* of them, that's *how* he pays them. But the point is that he's paying the workers to *extract* the resources so that he may himself use them. He's not paying them to *dispose* of the resources.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dig it yourself unless you can't live on 5 dollars an hour. Also the most efficient way to use it would not be "by hand" it would be using a huge machine with a screen on it and a few Cat's and Dumptrucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The higher the minimum wage, the stronger the incentive to automate.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP.
If I own an office, and I rent it to you. You are paying me not the other way around. Even though you are making money on my office( because ure a lawyer or something) I still dont see how Im paying you.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again.

ok my question:




I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops.

There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour.

The minimum wage is $6 per hour.

Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]3 things.
We should deprecate the use of the penny.
You should depend on private charity for your 50 bucks an hour. Private charities are better than lack of government programs to assist starving capitalists.
What if it wasn't a minimum wage law that prevented profitability for your product. But a safety regulation imposed by a business bureau. Do you demand the right to be listed favoraibly in the business bureau's directory? By owning 50 arces of land in the desert you agreed to terms of the nation containing the land. This voluntary transaction is the cause of your delema. You assumed the risk that the venture of penny extraction would be profitable when you purchased the land. You should not be able to pass the lose for your slight miscalculation on to the employee. Bad business decisions should be paid for by the capitalist. after all that is the only reason why I can see the capitalist deserving any money. It's the assumption of risk.

I do believe you should be able to get the goverment to subsidize the extra cash needed for your business to meet the minimum wage requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume that he acquired the land when the min wage was $4.50. When the gov't raised the min wage to 6.00 (by tacking it onto the Port Security bill?) it effectively took $1million from him (his anticipated profit on the $10M in pennies). It also took $9M in wages out of the economy.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? He said he was hiring people to pick pennies.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

If the OP is paying the workers $4.50 no matter what he is paying them, if the workers have to pay the OP $0.5 no matter what its the other way around.
However on the specific case on penny picking we all know which alternative is more profitable.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP.
If I own an office, and I rent it to you. You are paying me not the other way around. Even though you are making money on my office( because ure a lawyer or something) I still dont see how Im paying you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not easy to get around the problem by treating the laborers as independent contractors. The gov't will say that they are, in fact, employees and charge him back payroll taxes (and some hefty penalties and interest).

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP.
If I own an office, and I rent it to you. You are paying me not the other way around. Even though you are making money on my office( because ure a lawyer or something) I still dont see how Im paying you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not easy to get around the problem by treating the laborers as independent contractors. The gov't will say that they are, in fact, employees and charge him back payroll taxes (and some hefty penalties and interest).

[/ QUOTE ]

In my industry-the construction industry-the government makes zero effort to enforce the rules when it comes to sub-contractors vs employees. Even if they did enforce it all the op would have to do is show that the people picking pennies had the ability to work for anyone. Since this would be a limited time project that wouldn't be difficult.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again.

ok my question:




I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops.

There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour.

The minimum wage is $6 per hour.

Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]3 things.
We should deprecate the use of the penny.
You should depend on private charity for your 50 bucks an hour. Private charities are better than lack of government programs to assist starving capitalists.
What if it wasn't a minimum wage law that prevented profitability for your product. But a safety regulation imposed by a business bureau. Do you demand the right to be listed favoraibly in the business bureau's directory? By owning 50 arces of land in the desert you agreed to terms of the nation containing the land. This voluntary transaction is the cause of your delema. You assumed the risk that the venture of penny extraction would be profitable when you purchased the land. You should not be able to pass the lose for your slight miscalculation on to the employee. Bad business decisions should be paid for by the capitalist. after all that is the only reason why I can see the capitalist deserving any money. It's the assumption of risk.

I do believe you should be able to get the goverment to subsidize the extra cash needed for your business to meet the minimum wage requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume that he acquired the land when the min wage was $4.50. When the gov't raised the min wage to 6.00 (by tacking it onto the Port Security bill?) it effectively took $1million from him (his anticipated profit on the $10M in pennies). It also took $9M in wages out of the economy.

[/ QUOTE ]Basically, but how much extra consumerism does a minimum wage law put in the economy? It's a tricky calculation. In order for me to be consistant, I must believe a couple of things. Minimum wage workers are unable to negotiate a "fair" market value for thier labor in a "free" market. The minimum wage is set at a fair market value. An EIC or a maximum wage law is not feasible. Both would do better than a minimum wage. Any of those being different and the minimum wage harms the economy. If you find minimum wage laws bad for the economy what about maximum wage laws? Those would be good right. Like a max buy in NL table.

As far as the government changing the mw law. He should have anticipated cost of living increases and inflation into his calculations. I'm concerend with just how much money I need to spend in terms of crime prevention and social programs when people that are working can't afford the first 2 of maslow's needs. It's hard to anticipate what a turned down worker will do if his job is downsized becuase of minimum wage laws.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Minimum wage workers are unable to negotiate a "fair" market value for thier labor in a "free" market.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that this is a big part of whether minimum wage laws have merit or not. Propertarian stated sometime ago that most minimum wage workers add $20/hour of value to the businesses they work for. And even if not, in a lot of cases the cost will be shifted to the consumer (which I think most minimum wage advocates don't have a problem with, in fact I think that most people that advocate a miniumu wage would prefer earned income tax credits to those that need it than a raise in the minimum wage, which affects to a large part young people that don't reaaly need it, but see a minmum wage incrase as a second best alternative).

So I think that most proponents of minimum wage laws would have no problems with the letting workers work for OP if the situation was what was actually happening (i.e. lots of jobless people that want to work but can't get a job because businesses don't want to hire them for the minimum wage). There are 15 states or so that currently have higher minimum wages than the federal wage, to my knowledge there has been no study showing that this has had an adverse effect.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again.

ok my question:




I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops.

There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour.

The minimum wage is $6 per hour.

Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mickey gave the right answer. There is no law preventing you from hiring these people. If you can't afford to fully exploit your land without breaking the law then too bad. If you can't afford to exploit your land at all because the only way to get anything valuable out of it is to break the law then you suck at real estate investing and/or capitalism.

Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
 

that penny picking job is BAD for the economy, even assuming the pennies are a real good like produce.

it is bad for this reason...there are TONS of other jobs that are available that would profit by hiring an extra person at more than 5 dollars an hour. most low paid employees could be paid significantly more and the company would still be profitable. and if it isn't worth hiring people to pick produce at 5 dollars an hour, then it is obvious that consumers don't really want that produce. but companies would be profitable selling less produce at a higher price to the consumers willing to spend the dough, but of course that means less employment. and until the minimum wage law has a significant impact on employment in the aggregate, it is a GOOD thing for society, because it maximize the utility of labor.