1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Villain is cuse522. He is a regular, 22/12 over 200 hands. I'm playing straightforward TAG.

Do you still call that river bet if turn is as played? Seems incredibly unlikely to be a bluff. How would you play this differently? What is OK, what's not?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($816.95)
CO ($193.35)
Hero ($716.90)
SB ($92)
BB ($229.35)
UTG ($32.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $26</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $20.

Flop: ($57) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($57) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $31</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $131</font>, Hero calls $100.

River: ($319) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $180</font>, Hero ????

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

How often do you check the flop with ace-high?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I check paired flops pretty often regardless of my holding. This flop provides very few realistic draws.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

His pf raise is wierd, maybe he just wanted to isolate utg? Even so, wierd raise.

After u check flop, wouldnt him lead turn with a boat?

His line is somehow wierd and i think we might be good 30% of time.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

His $6 could have been a bluff out of the gate but he could've been holding 4,5 or even offsuited low gap connectors such as 4, 6, and got lucky with straight draw or trips on the flop. Hell, he could've had a low pocket pair like 6,6 and flopped QUADS. If it was a straight draw, he could've caught his 2 on the turn for the big bet, or he could've even had 6, 2 offsuit and caught a boat.
I probably would've balked at a $100 dollar raise with only a pair of Queens and such a low board.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Any plan for your hand falls apart by not making a goodsized bet on the flop. Now, unless you have some read to cling on to, anything could be going on and your reaching in the dark. Im torn for the riverdecision and it would all depend on how i perceive his abilities.

Bad players i call, since they cant interpret your turncall and often go way overboard with bluffs, giving you decent potodds in this hand.

ABC players i fold to, since they interpret your turncall as either A(K/Q/J) of hearts or an overpair, and would have a hard time to continue betting this river with any hand that you beat.

aggro Good players i tend to call a lot more, since they can see you are a decent player that would have trouble calling such a bet with an overpair as the action on the turn played out, and the riverheart coming down. Bluffpossibility increases once more

I'd feel sick in any of the scenarios , no doubt [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

my 2cts

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I think you can pretty safely fold the river.

The small preflop raise could be a pot-sweetener with some suited connectors or a low pair (though a little unlikely with low suited connectors because of the shortstack limper) or something like TT+,AJs+,AK,KQs. You're both deep, so his call preflop doesn't narrow this range much.

On the flop, nothing changes. On the turn, though, I figure this could be an overpair (less likely because he checks twice and I don't expect him to check-raise any overpair lower than QQ), trips (also unlikely based on p/f range), a boat, an unlikely straight, or a turned flush draw that expects he can take you off your hand based on your weak bet.

After you call the turn, it seems really unlikely that he's going to try to push you off your overpair. Since the flush draw also got there if he didn't have you on the turn I think he has you now. Given the river, I expect he'd check or make a smaller blocker with almost everything that you beat. If I call I expect to see a flush, a boat, or AA (in roughly that order).

---
Given your description of Villain, I would have prefered to bet the flop, check the turn, call or value bet the river. I don't like checking the flop because your hand is relatively vulnerable, and he doesn't seem likely to run a big multi-street bluff OOP vs. you with deep stacks (so you can pretty safely get away if he gets aggro while still extracting value when you're ahead).

As played, I'm not crazy about the small turn bet. Also, I haven't thought too carefully about it, but there may be value in 3betting the turn.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Checking flop is good, and u guys should do it with almost any hand that u 3beted pf with.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
His $6 could have been a bluff out of the gate but he could've been holding 4,5 or even offsuited low gap connectors such as 4, 6, and got lucky with straight draw or trips on the flop. Hell, he could've had a low pocket pair like 6,6 and flopped QUADS. If it was a straight draw, he could've caught his 2 on the turn for the big bet, or he could've even had 6, 2 offsuit and caught a boat.
I probably would've balked at a $100 dollar raise with only a pair of Queens and such a low board.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

mmm, i seriously disagree, since pp's are certainly not the only hands in my 3betting range, and with the majority of those the most of the winnings are made with the CBet on the flop(if it gets to one of course).

In this matter i also do not like checking the flop. Of course there does not seem much harm in checking here, but unless you're playing very playerdependent (preferably a bad aggro bluffy player) i dont like these moves.

I can think of a few arguments, but the main point is that your check changes the dynamics of a hand in a way you get easily tied up in huge pots without knowing that much about where your opponent is at.
It becomes a very swingy game, and i wouldn't be surprised if the ratio bluffs/payoffs vs beats isn't all that great. Holding aces or kings, i think you can get it to bend in your favor, queens is most likely a lot harder since there are too many outs running against you or at the very least killing your action if you're ahead. Dont underestimate the value of picking up these smaller pots on flops like this. Especially with QQ.

regards,

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

you play really weird for a 12 tabler

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

i´d play it the same, and fold the river. If he´s any good he realizes that you have at least JJ there and that you are likely to call the river if you call that big raise on the turn.
Though it´s a tough spot, i probably fold the turn if it´s not a 2nd heart.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking flop is good, and u guys should do it with almost any hand that u 3beted pf with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could I hear more about this? I understand it as a variation play (maybe even as much as say 30% of the time), but checking as a matter of course? Aren't we losing value?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I love the flop check. Fold river. NH. How big a bet do you think you can call from this guy on the river?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I think villain played most hands badly if he is ahead, unless he got there on the turn with 22.

River is a SUPER SUPER EASY FOLD if villain is anywhere near good as the only semi bluff just got there.

anyway, people need big hands to make big bets in deep pots so I would probably just give QQ up, especially as JJ / TT is not going to be c/ring like this and betting river like this. There is no hand you beat imo.

I think turn call is sketchy but probably okish.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Flop check is good since he would do it with a variety of hands including AK. And no we don't lose value. We are not getting 3 streets of value vs a hand like JJ here, so cutting it down to a 2 street pot is fine. I'm calling the river. He's representing absolutely nothing with his line. He would have led the turn with anything that beats you since he can't expect you to bet the turn (you check behind the turn with AK yes?). We must be good here enough to call.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good since he would do it with a variety of hands including AK. And no we don't lose value. We are not getting 3 streets of value vs a hand like JJ here, so cutting it down to a 2 street pot is fine. I'm calling the river. He's representing absolutely nothing with his line. He would have led the turn with anything that beats you since he can't expect you to bet the turn (you check behind the turn with AK yes?). We must be good here enough to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

we definitely have 3 streets of value here if you are playing. Also, you should be 2-strett / 3-street bluffing AK here at least some of the time.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]


I think turn call is sketchy but probably okish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply because it's hard to see him doing that as a bluff, but you may have induced one with the flop check.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Perhaps its my lousy english, but i dont get any of this...

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check is good since he would do it with a variety of hands including AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean your checking through AK as a rule of thumb on this flop? Why? In general im pretty happy and i fire away, i dont feel like im spewing either.

[ QUOTE ]
And no we don't lose value. We are not getting 3 streets of value vs a hand like JJ here, so cutting it down to a 2 street pot is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont get the theory behind this. How does checking this flop convert a 3street hand to a 2street hand? I see how there are only 2 streets left, however by betting a flop you get the same deal if you wish (bet flop, check turn or bet flop, bet turn and folding to a raise for instance) only with a lot more info about your opponents hand and thus much much more potcontrol. So i dont think that argument stands, and fwiw i think any move (in this case the flopcheck) where you give away control of a pot, and thus essential info that crystallises the action to take, is about one of the most valuelosing moves one can make in NLHE.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling the river. He's representing absolutely nothing with his line. He would have led the turn with anything that beats you since he can't expect you to bet the turn (you check behind the turn with AK yes?). We must be good here enough to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree to disagree then. Lots of people stab if checked to twice in a hand HU, and often they are right doing so. I can understand villains line, if he has trips, boat, a heartdraw or a bluff. Only the latter i wouldn't expect to fire again on the river, but of course it depends on how the villain plays.

regards,

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Why do you frequently check flops with pairs?

Why did you check this specific flop with QQ?

Theres a very good chance he has a pair 77-JJ as well as AK/AQ type hands on the flop.

As played, I think the river is a fold though. But you did put yourself in a tough spot IMO.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you frequently check flops with pairs?

Why did you check this specific flop with QQ?

Theres a very good chance he has a pair 77-JJ as well as AK/AQ type hands on the flop.

As played, I think the river is a fold though. But you did put yourself in a tough spot IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

He frequently checks paired flops

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you frequently check flops with pairs?

Why did you check this specific flop with QQ?

Theres a very good chance he has a pair 77-JJ as well as AK/AQ type hands on the flop.

As played, I think the river is a fold though. But you did put yourself in a tough spot IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

He frequently checks paired flops

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats the difference between this flop and an unpaired rag flop?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
you play really good for a 12 tabler

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get the theory behind this. How does checking this flop convert a 3street hand to a 2street hand? I see how there are only 2 streets left, however by betting a flop you get the same deal if you wish (bet flop, check turn or bet flop, bet turn and folding to a raise for instance) only with a lot more info about your opponents hand and thus much much more potcontrol. So i dont think that argument stands, and fwiw i think any move (in this case the flopcheck) where you give away control of a pot, and thus essential info that crystallises the action to take, is about one of the most valuelosing moves one can make in NLHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really wish you and everybody else who thinks this way would let got of this magical idea of betting for [censored] INFO. That is not a good reason to bet. Our goal here as with every hand is to maximize our expectation. Checking and many flops in position after the preflop action really helps accomplish that very idea.

This is why. Betting the flop will often times fold out hands like 77-99 that were only playing for set value but will now give action on many turns through bluffs or calls. If we check,bBig suited cards like AQ/KQ/AK may now lead blank turns which is an easy call for us and makes us money from those hands when we might not have. Checking the flop also helps disguise our hand which leads to FTOP mistakes which is always a good thing.

This is not to say that betting the flop is not a +EV move, but the bottomline is that checking is likely much more +EV. We all need to avoid playing hands the easy way.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

we are betting the turn if checked by villian again yer?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think villain played most hands badly if he is ahead, unless he got there on the turn with 22.

River is a SUPER SUPER EASY FOLD if villain is anywhere near good as the only semi bluff just got there.

anyway, people need big hands to make big bets in deep pots so I would probably just give QQ up, especially as JJ / TT is not going to be c/ring like this and betting river like this. There is no hand you beat imo.

I think turn call is sketchy but probably okish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ this
true makes poker seem so easy sometimes

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I'd fold. I think villain has the nut flush a good percentage of the time.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
we are betting the turn if checked by villian again yer?

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I basically checked on flop because I don't really want to play a huge pot here, and I think I can get a satisfactory amount in on turn/river. I check a lot on flops like this because most of the time, I don't have much there, but I tend to get action ... because the guy calling the preflop raise doesn't understand how it helps you.

I think I maybe bet too little on turn, and may have induced h im to play more unpredictably.

I folded the river

Anyway, I guess I'll agree with you guys that by checking behind here, and doing some of the other weird things I do, I put myself in tough spots, but most of the time, I like being in them because if you can handle them right, they're very +EV.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

im folding river.

if hes a solid TAG you are gonna be seeing 222 and 333 here quite often.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really wish you and everybody else who thinks this way would let got of this magical idea of betting for [censored] INFO. That is not a good reason to bet. Our goal here as with every hand is to maximize our expectation. Checking and many flops in position after the preflop action really helps accomplish that very idea.

This is why. Betting the flop will often times fold out hands like 77-99 that were only playing for set value but will now give action on many turns through bluffs or calls. If we check,bBig suited cards like AQ/KQ/AK may now lead blank turns which is an easy call for us and makes us money from those hands when we might not have. Checking the flop also helps disguise our hand which leads to FTOP mistakes which is always a good thing.

This is not to say that betting the flop is not a +EV move, but the bottomline is that checking is likely much more +EV. We all need to avoid playing hands the easy way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very much agreed

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Ty for responding.

However, i think your are just shedding your light on all good that can come from checking, not the bad stuff. Like i previously stated, i think its pretty close since when fiddling around in the dark queens are probably a lot harder to get away from when beat than your opponent will have to figure out when his hand is beat by queens. Of course the latter will occur more often but bring less money in, and the first occur less but will cost you on average more. Hard to set the line, but in this case the real danger of overcards that can come out make me sway in betting to protect.

This is not the traditional 'betting for info' play. I agree with most critiques i see on that subject, a bet on this flop is so much more than just that.

ps. as a varietyplay i dont mind this line of course, but thats different

ps2. i dont know if there is much left to say on the matter, we have different stands and until i can see some hard data i dont think i or you will sway on this subject [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] .If u or anyone likes to chime in further i appreciate though as i find it interesting since i feel im a minority on this and am really really surprised about that so enlighten me please [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I bet the flop. If you get check raised there, you can three bet and fold to a push.

He might be really sneek and just called with AA or KK.

But as played call the river. I think we are good more that 30% of the time.
[Edit] So you checked the flop to induce bets from hands that beat AK and such? Got the bets and folded on the river. So what did you put him on? a set or the flush or str8?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I bet the flop the vast majority of the time, but checking is good too. Depends a lot on what you think he'd do with a middle pair.

Turn looks good.

River is a [censored] card, so I would fold, but I would instacall on a blank.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I think bet/3bet/folding the flop and just CBing the flop are both higher variance plays and they don't give you more control of the hand or anything.

Don't you think in a reraised pot, villain should fold just about everything to a CB? He's out of position, picture yourself in his situation. What hands will you give me action with, knowing there are 2 more streets to come. That I will check behind twice should be quite a stretch in his mind.

He's either going to give up almost every hand I beat here, or play them in a way I don't expect him too (because I expect him to give them up) making him hard to read.

If that doesn't convince you, consider this just a mix-up play. I'm sure there isn't much less EV in it, if any less at all.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

this may seem weak, but i might even fold the turn. This is a big raise form a player that the Op considers solid, is there really that big of a chance that he has 77-JJ often enough. When calling the turn we have to consider that the fact that we will be facing a big river bet fairly often, so i would lean towards the turn fold...

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

I do think folding turn is weak given that flop is as played. Marginal, but I think weak.

Btw, here's a hand against the same villain, on the same table, somewhat related. I thought it was pretty interesting too(but less so than the first one), so why not add to this topic...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG ($1008.30)</font>
MP ($264.45)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($602.30)</font>
Button ($153.90)
SB ($257.60)
BB ($167)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $26</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $20.

Flop: ($55) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $34</font>, UTG calls $34.

Turn: ($123) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $80</font>, UTG calls $80.

River: ($283) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $140</font>

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do think folding turn is weak given that flop is as played. Marginal, but I think weak.

Btw, here's a hand against the same villain, on the same table, somewhat related. I thought it was pretty interesting too(but less so than the first one), so why not add to this topic...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG ($1008.30)</font>
MP ($264.45)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($602.30)</font>
Button ($153.90)
SB ($257.60)
BB ($167)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $26</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $20.

Flop: ($55) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $34</font>, UTG calls $34.

Turn: ($123) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $80</font>, UTG calls $80.

River: ($283) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $140</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually more infavor of folding this hand. We played our hand face up and he says he has it beat. I think he has 66 or the flush.

Did this guy ever four bet you PF? Have you seen any of his holdings?

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

Checking flops and decrying the hand definition and yes, I'll say it, extra info you get from betting has become a little too trendy around here lately. I don't think checking this flop is bad, but neither is betting it.

Re: 1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking flop is good, and u guys should do it with almost any hand that u 3beted pf with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll agree that it is good sometimes, but that's retarded to do it 100% of the time when we 3bet pf.