So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

Great, great game. One maniac and another LAG at the table have everyone raising like idiots, and huge pots are the result. So of course I'm card dead and have entered maybe 3 pots in the last 4 orbits.

MP3 is our maniac. Well, "maniac" may not be the right word...he's maniacal preflop, but generally won't put in raises postflop without at least a pair. He will chase any draw to the river, however, including two undercards, and is very capable of bluffing scare cards. His preflop raising standards appear to include any pair, any ace, any king, any two broadway, or just any two other cards when he's feeling lucky. For point of reference, I've seen him call 4 cold preflop with 93o, raise a K94 flop, and bet every street afterwards when nobody reraised.

Button just joined the table an orbit prior. After posting in the CO for his first hand, he 3-bet the maniac's openraise with 22 and won at showdown UI. He value bet the river in that hand. I'm guessing that means he has my read on MP3.



Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>...

Thoughts? I plan to release postflop if Button gets all aggressive there, but at least see a river if I'm heads up with MP3 and show down 100% of the time if I improve at all. Maybe 75% of the time when I don't improve.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

I can see what you're trying to do, but doesn't it just cost too much money?

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

personally i would fold here, closer decision if it was suited

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

i might be inclined to just leave this one alone.

if button will 3 bet with any pair, he's still ahead of you. One of them may have a better A and then if an A flops you'll be headed for showdown with only 3 outs. Putting 4 bets in dominated is bad enough and then you'll be left paying off which is even worse.

plus, i have a feeling that neither of these players would be bluffable and would see almost any pair (board or pocket) to the showdown which puts a lot more pressure on you to hit.

also, I'd wait till I get a better read on button before i attempt something like this. I'd feel good about this if I had seen button 3 betting to isolate mp3 specifically with weaker hands than pocket pairs.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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also, I'd wait till I get a better read on button before i attempt something like this. I'd feel good about this if I had seen button 3 betting to isolate mp3 specifically with weaker hands than pocket pairs.

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I think the fact that he bet the river with 22, unimproved, and won at showdown against MP3 is huge in this regard. I believe in that hand MP3 had A4o, and check/called all the way to showdown.

I'm basically banking on Button's 3-betting range against MP3 to be similar to what mine would be...which includes most of the hands I'd openraise with from the Button. If I'm right on that, then combined with MP3's raising range, there's a pretty fair chance that I already have the best hand. Or that either I or MP3 will provide enough pressure on the flop to get Button out with a small pp or slightly better ace.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

Its a good line up to try this resteal against, b/c you know the button knows that mp3 is terrible and could pop it will all kinds of hands. I dont like that you are OOP against these two though. To some extent I guess you could have mp3 helping you with shutting out the button on the flop. However as your read describes, that means he has at least a pair, so lets hope you flop one. Obv situation gets complicated post flop against 2 agros OOP, not sure if you planned on posting the rest of the hand, but im interested in seeing how it played out.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

based on your image and some other stuff i really, really like this.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

I don't like this, seeing the flop is costing you too much. Using SSHE thinking, all you have is one big card with a poor kicker, and no suitedness, no connectedness. Again, according to SSHE strategy, even if you had A8s it would at best be a call with no raises in front of you. Given the table condtions though I could see a call if it hadn't been raised in front of you. At most I don't think you want to pay more than 2 bets to see the flop.

re: A8o....I cap
 

Relative and absolute position problems.

How do you plan to get it heads-up with MP3? You have to 1) catch a piece of the board to bet and 2) hope MP3 also caught a [worse] piece and raises...and 3) button has absolutely nothing

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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Using SSHE thinking

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this hand/poster/situation is way past that

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

This is by no means a bad play...unless you are looking at fundamentals. Basically you need to show button that he can't just go around isolating every time MP3 raises and this IMO is like the PERFECT hand to do it with. It looks kind of like you are getting involved in the idiocy if BT is a pretty good player...if he is a poster on here he probably knows what you are doing. But now you are 1) teaching button a lesson and 2) doing it in such a way that you kind of advertise negatively about yourself. I probably wouldn't have had the cajones to do this but I really like it Harv.

Fundamentally this is a terrible play e.g. seeing a capped flop with A8o.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

I wouldn't do this. I think that you can wait for a hand where you have a bigger edge. The pots are likely to be big at this table, so you can fold a lot of blinds in order to wait for the big hand, instead of wandering in to the mess.

I might threebet the maniac here, but I don't like capping it with two players in, even with their expanded ranges, it just doesn't feel like you have much of an edge if any.

Now, someone could pokerstove this and convince me that I'm wrong, but it is one of those situations that just feels a little too gambly for me, especially since we are probably going to a showdown, and I don't like our hand that much for a showdown.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

Man, I really don't like this.

I don't mind the play so much; I just don't like it out of the BB. You're going to have a really hard time figuring out what to do after the flop since you have conflicting goals of wanting to get to showdown and wanting to bet at your opponents. Even in this circumstance, A8o isn't all that good of a hand and I think you'll have a hard time making it pay off out of position.

Given your reads, I shouldn't take long to get a chance to make this play in the CO or button. Even with the extra sb cost, I think you're going to have a better EV with position - acting after your opponents will give you a much better idea which of your two goals to chase.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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But now you are 1) teaching button a lesson and 2) doing it in such a way that you kind of advertise negatively about yourself.

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I like this aspect of it. IF you get to show it down, others will think "he's joined in the insanity" and BTN may think twice about 3-betting ace-rag &amp; micropairs. IF you show it down. Otherwise it looks like you got pushed around again.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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But now you are 1) teaching button a lesson and 2) doing it in such a way that you kind of advertise negatively about yourself.

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I like this aspect of it. IF you get to show it down, others will think "he's joined in the insanity" and BTN may think twice about 3-betting ace-rag &amp; micropairs. IF you show it down. Otherwise it looks like you got pushed around again.

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I thought the value of the play in +EV was quite thin (if at all) but that Harv made the play pretty much solely for these purposes. Doing it with something like 62o would just be idiotic, A8o is good enough to win some of the time and just a great hand to show down in the situation (true, if you can get there).

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

I like this...Although it does take huge set of balls to do this. With maniac raising a LARGE range of hands you probably have a good edge on him. Button probably thinks he can isolate and use his position to beat maniac out of the pot so his range may have loosened up significantly, espescially from late position. But what is your strategy from here?
I'm assuming a large portion of your decision rests on the fact that you are making such a strong raise out of position for deception representing a very strong hand.
so do you lead out on the flop regardless? I think I would bet and hope the board hit neither. or maybe button got a piece and your deception gives you a significant fold equity on him. the only thing you should be worried about is if Maniac hits any and you go unimproved, you hit your ace and button has a bigger one, or button has a PP.

I believe, given your image, given previous action and events, this is a good play. Unfortunately If you don't hit or can't pull it down on the flop, you will be in for some very tough decisions

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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Using SSHE thinking

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this hand/poster/situation is way past that

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I fully understand what the poster may be trying to do, and maybe it truly is genius at work and will work out, certainly a ballsy move. I can't reall believe your statement that the poster is "way past" playing something like SSHE strategy or he probably wouldn't be playing in a 3/6 game.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

Agreed to wait for a better situation. One of the hardest things for me is to sit and fold while some idiot is giving money away and the whole table is on tilt but I think that is what has to be done here.

Rather than go on tilt myself I would rather be patient and realize that if I do pick up a hand or two I am going to get paid off huge.

This is not to say that you need to wait for premium hands but at least solidly playable hands and/or a better chance to isolate in position, especially if the preflop action is aggressive.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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I just don't like it out of the BB.

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my thoughts at first as well. i liked it on the button or some other LP. BUT it shows a tremendous amount of strength cold-capping out of the BB. everyone but the maniac should notice this and possibly fold incorrectly. it also sends a message about future hands, and should gain crazy action if he shows it down. in a vacuum it sucks, but we ain't playing poker in a vacuum.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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You're going to have a really hard time figuring out what to do after the flop since you have conflicting goals of wanting to get to showdown and wanting to bet at your opponents.

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What to do after the flop is remarkably easy: make a continuation bet &amp; see what happens.

I know that MP3 is going to call with any 2 cards. If he raises, he probably has a pair of some sort, but he could be on a draw as well.

The real qualifier is what Button does. If he calls the flop continuation bet, he probably has me beat and I have to decide whether or not it's worth firing a second barrel. Probably not. If he raises the flop continuation bet, or coldcalls my bet + a raise from MP3, then he's got me crushed and I can exit stage left (note that I'm including a possible strong draw as having me "crushed"). If the action goes bet/raise/3bet and I'm still sitting there with ace high, then I can take a few seconds to ponder calling with my AK or TT or whatever I feel like representing, eventually fold, and the type a "nh" or something after the showdown.

I just want to stress...I am not committing myself to a showdown in this pot, unless I have improved and it is heads up against MP3. If Button sees the turn and I don't improve, then I'm not usually putting any more bets in. If it's heads up vs. MP3 and he has not raised or there is an obvious missed draw showing, I will often check/call the river for value with my ace high.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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I can't reall believe your statement that the poster is "way past" playing something like SSHE strategy or he probably wouldn't be playing in a 3/6 game.

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We all play an SSHE strategy. Some of us just customize it a bit more than others. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

Well, I hate to disagree with Bob T since he's a mini god for me and gives me great advice, but I like your play Harv. I tried to run numbers with pokerstove putting maniac on a range of -22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K2 o+,Q7o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o

I put button on range of -
22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J9o+

I don't know if you would consider these numbers accurate, it's just a wild guess really. You are a just a bit behind buttons range here. I would think the only reason you don't want to be in this hand though is if the button actually has a better read on you than you think and will outplay you postflop, or he is just a straight up calling station. As for people saying wait for a better spot I think you will find better spots no doubt. Definitely take them when they come along, but I don't think you should be passing up OK spots if you can find them or make them. Everyone is free to rip this post apart if you disagree. Here are my made up ranges for pokerstove-

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.1997 % 30.50% 01.70% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K2o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 2: 34.8763 % 32.57% 02.30% { 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J9s+, T9s, A2o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+ }
Hand 3: 32.9240 % 29.99% 02.93% { Ac8d }

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

You have A8o, not AA.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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You have A8o, not AA.

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AA never wins.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

i ran the stove too, you're slightly behind, but that was not your point. I still think it costs too much. If you play you should cap. But you should wait for a better spot. This hand will potentially cost you a lot of money

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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Man, I really don't like this.

I don't mind the play so much; I just don't like it out of the BB. You're going to have a really hard time figuring out what to do after the flop since you have conflicting goals of wanting to get to showdown and wanting to bet at your opponents. Even in this circumstance, A8o isn't all that good of a hand and I think you'll have a hard time making it pay off out of position.

Given your reads, I shouldn't take long to get a chance to make this play in the CO or button. Even with the extra sb cost, I think you're going to have a better EV with position - acting after your opponents will give you a much better idea which of your two goals to chase.

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Agreed completely. One of the main strengths of your Ace-high here against a maniac is its showdown value without improvement. Being out of position against two players means you are going to realize a very small percentage of that equity.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

i wouldn't.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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not sure if you planned on posting the rest of the hand, but im interested in seeing how it played out.

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Pretty anticlimactic. Flop came Q rag rag, bet, call, fold. Turn ace, bet, call. River Q, bet, fold. I win w/o showdown.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

nh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

No.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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i wouldn't.

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Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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not sure if you planned on posting the rest of the hand, but im interested in seeing how it played out.

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Pretty anticlimactic. Flop came Q rag rag, bet, call, fold. Turn ace, bet, call. River Q, bet, fold. I win w/o showdown.

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can't argue with results!

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

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I put button on range of -
22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J9s+,T9s,A2o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J9o+



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To 3 bet the button with?? This seems like a bit of a stretch considering that there's no read on the button and no way to know if he's aware of how loose MP3 is.. you really think the button is 3-betting with K7 or A2??? I'd think being OOP you'd want to error on the side of caution and put him on a PP, probably 7's or higher or ATs or better.. in which case we can't beat any of those and are really just askin' to get ourselves trapped..

I think capping with A rag OOP is a "leak" in anyone's game..

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

I'm with the lay it down PF crowd.

If this game is as good as you claim it is your gonna get more than one oppurtunity to make this kind of play. (i.e. buttion, CO)
And we still don't really have a read on the button. All we know is that doesn't seem to respect the maniac. He could be a calling station for all we know. I want a better read on both players both players before I try something like this.

Re: So it\'s 3 bets to me in the BB with A8o....I cap
 

I'd like it more if the maniac is the 3 bettor. With the button being the re-raiser I like it alot less. I just think you're going to miss the flop and get two calls on the flop OOP with no idea where you stand. But then again you're better than I am.