Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

I have been playing B&M low NL games that are full of complete donks. 6 players per flop, a total messy game. No matter how i play i cant consistently win and i believe i am a decent player, and am a winning player when playing against solid players. I have just had trouble keeping a solid bankroll while being in college with bills and such. I am a student of the game and work very hard at it.

my question would be: should i wait and build up a bankroll, or keep playing the low games that are pretty much a crapshoot?

ive scouted the 20/40 limit games well and believe i could do well at that game.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

You are inevitably going to get responses telling you to "move up so people will respect your raises." They are joking. Do not do this. If you are interested in playing limit, you need to get SSH. You should pay special attention to pages 16-18, "Where the Money Comes From." I can't really provide any recommendations for NL books since I play limit, but if you can't beat the low limit games, you won't be able to beat the higher games either. Grind it out and work your way up. There's something to learn at each level.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

If you are good you should kill donk games. Its nl, you have no excusses. If they call with bad odds, then you did your job. Another option is to raise more.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing high school basketball games that are full of complete donks. 3 players not boxing out for rebounds, a total messy game. No matter how I play I can't consistently get to the ball, and I believe I am a decent player, and am a winning player when playing against solid players. I have just had trouble keeping a solid dribble and jumpshot while being in college with actual defenders and such. I am a student of the game and work very hard at it.

my question would be: should I wait and actually learn the game, or keep playing the high school games that are pretty much a crapshoot?

I've scouted the NBA games well and believe I could do well at that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try some critical thinking and logic. Then get back to us.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

The table is full of idiots at 20/40...go higher still.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Move up so people will respect your raises.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

I hear at 100/200 they respect some raises but not all.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

If you can't beat the 3-6, don't go to 20-40.

We didn't have a pot below 15 bets for the two hours I was at one 20-40 table.

So picture your 'crapshoot' but instead of calling, everyone's raising.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Whats SSH? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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Whats SSH? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Here you go

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Yeah .. high limits are easy, it's all about capping it on all streets with whatever crappy hand you might have ... until villian with another crappy hand loses his cool and lays down his hand on when river is three bet.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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I hear at 100/200 they respect some raises but not all.

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Is that a crack about how no one respects my raises?! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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Losing at low limit or step it up to high?

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Stick to the low limits; it will cost you less to learn how to play.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

I've been doing fairly well at low limits, and here are some hints:
- Find a table with average 6 players seeing the flop and no preflop raising.
- Never bluff, and rarely semi-bluff. Wait till you have a powerful hand and pump the pot.
- Patience! Don't raise 78s in middle position because Daniel did it last night in a NL tournament.
- Don't raise preflop unless you are sure it will knock people out (i.e., UTG). It will just make the pot bigger and make the fish more correct in chasing.

It is typical for me to play 2 hours and make all my money in one or two hands.

Sorry, I just realized you're talking about NL. These hints apply to limit.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Move all the way up. Phil Ivey will respect your raises.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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- Patience! Don't raise 78s in middle position because Daniel did it last night in a NL tournament.

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Nope, but if the pot is 7 way it wouldn't be so bad to cap it.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Well, I am tired of seeing people get hammered on this one. I wonder how many of you have played 1/2 limit at commerce.

These games are tough to beat (yes, I've read and completely understand SSH) in fact, I used to always get the "Boy, you sure are tight" comments from everyone as I folded hand after hand. Why are these game hard to beat?

First, the rake and tip are monsters in a game like this. If 9 people sit down with $50 to play 1/2 limit they must all go broke within, at most, 6 hours.

Do you see why? :P

The second reason that these games are frustrating to the "good" player is the collective effect of SO many bad players at the table. Pocket Aces are not worth much against 6 players. Following SSH guidelines you will only get a playable hand fairly rarely. God forbid if it's raised in front of you, because then you'll have to throw that AQ that you've waited an hour for away. You will then watch, in horror, as the pot is scooped by someone with A4o.

Having said all this, yes, in the long run a good player should win at these games, but, as Sklansky himself has said, it would be best to play at the 10-20 or higher so you're not fighting the rake so much. If you can't do this, then play online where the rake is reasonable and there is no tip.


As a side note, my ex business partner has been playing professionally for about 5 years and has built a 6 figure BR--not bad. When I was starting out and told him that I was reading this or that book and that I was going to crush the low limit games, he patiently (as if I were a 2 year old) explained that "the book doesn't work in those games"

Just my .02

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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Pocket Aces are not worth much against 6 players.

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They are worth more than any other hand you will get.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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Don't raise preflop unless you are sure it will knock people out (i.e., UTG). It will just make the pot bigger and make the fish more correct in chasing.

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Bad advice.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Some casino rake structures can make the 2/4 and 3/6 difficult to beat for a substantial amount.


I wouldn't go as high as the 20/40, but I could understand starting at 5/10 or 6/12. Build yourself up from there.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Well,
I'm very interested in what your partner *has* found that works. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

That being said..

I've run some analysis using this player profile:

Will play all pairs, any ace, any king, any suited connector.

Ok, not a great model, but best I can do with the software I have at hand.

I ran matchups on all hands from heads up to 7 handed.

AA had the highest EV for any number of opponents. And the EV went *up* as number of opponents increased.

But, here's the rub that explains your subjective observation...

As number of opponents increases, so does the odds of losing.

Here's the numbers:


Opps..EV...Odds Against
1.....0.72......0.16:1
2.....1.22......0.35:1
3.....1.56......0.56:1
4.....1.80......0.78:1
5.....1.80......1.08:1
6.....1.80......1.50:1

(Sorry 'bout the periods, only thing I could think of to keep the columns straight.)

So typically you're going to get cracked about half the time, just as a guesstimate.

But, since the EV stays relatively level from 6 down to 4 players... there's some value in trying to limit the field with a raise since the EV is the same, but the pot is bigger *and* you win more often.

Then again, you could argue that raising out even more players is beneficial because though the EV is larger, the pot is bigger. 1.56 against dead money and few players might be advantageous, right? While also winning more often. So seems with PP's, limiting the field has the effect of reducing variance. A good thing in my book.

Though I haven't worked the numbers out, it would seem that if the odds of winning rise quickly enough, or the EV drops slowly enough, you may actually win more money, though the EV is less, because the pots are bigger. (Again, with hopefully reduced variance.)

However, if you didn't manage to reduce the field, you're still on mathematically favorable ground, right? And from the other direction, if occasionally you do let a donk in when you get AA UTG, and get cracked, you're still likely on good ground long term, I'd tend to think.

Anyway, just what my impromptu analysis shows. Not certain if my conclusions represent fuzzy thinking or not.

[ QUOTE ]
Pocket Aces are not worth much against 6 players. Following SSH guidelines you will only get a playable hand fairly rarely.

As a side note, my ex business partner has been playing professionally for about 5 years and has built a 6 figure BR--not bad. When I was starting out and told him that I was reading this or that book and that I was going to crush the low limit games, he patiently (as if I were a 2 year old) explained that "the book doesn't work in those games"

Just my .02

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Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

The only reason to move up is rake/tip beneftis. Once you get up to about 6/12 the rake +tip is pretty reasonable and more or less in line with the rake you see online. I'd imagine that 1/2 live might be almost unbeatable because with 3 bucks rake + 1 buck jackpot drop + 1 buck tip you are losing 5 bucks from the table per hand at an average casino game. So move up past 1/2 and 2/4 but there's no reason to jump into 10/20 if you can't beat 5/10 or 6/12.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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...i cant consistently win...

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Allow me to shed some light on this; you're playing poker. No one at any level ever wins consistently. Unless they're playing a few thousand hands per session and even then it is unlikely.

If you want to make money consistently I recommend a job.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

If there are consistently many players in the pot, you can play more hands with high implied odds (suited connectors and pocket pairs).

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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I have been playing high school basketball games that are full of complete donks. 3 players not boxing out for rebounds, a total messy game. No matter how I play I can't consistently get to the ball, and I believe I am a decent player, and am a winning player when playing against solid players. I have just had trouble keeping a solid dribble and jumpshot while being in college with actual defenders and such. I am a student of the game and work very hard at it.

my question would be: should I wait and actually learn the game, or keep playing the high school games that are pretty much a crapshoot?

I've scouted the NBA games well and believe I could do well at that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try some critical thinking and logic. Then get back to us.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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Sorry for the bump of an old thread,,,but I love this,,NH dogmeat

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

Ahh...posts like these always bring a smile to my face. You just made my day.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing high school basketball games that are full of complete donks. 3 players not boxing out for rebounds, a total messy game. No matter how I play I can't consistently get to the ball, and I believe I am a decent player, and am a winning player when playing against solid players. I have just had trouble keeping a solid dribble and jumpshot while being in college with actual defenders and such. I am a student of the game and work very hard at it.

my question would be: should I wait and actually learn the game, or keep playing the high school games that are pretty much a crapshoot?

I've scouted the NBA games well and believe I could do well at that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try some critical thinking and logic. Then get back to us.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, the false analogy, I love it. What other manner of sophistry will we employ to ridicule this poster.

Try taking Critical Thinking and Composition and get back to us.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

It kills me that you have to weed through 70% sarcastic posts to get to the 30% that actually help the OP. There's a reason so many non 2+2ers think we're all snobs here.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing B&M low NL games that are full of complete donks. 6 players per flop, a total messy game. No matter how i play i cant consistently win and i believe i am a decent player, and am a winning player when playing against solid players. I have just had trouble keeping a solid bankroll while being in college with bills and such. I am a student of the game and work very hard at it.

my question would be: should i wait and build up a bankroll, or keep playing the low games that are pretty much a crapshoot?

ive scouted the 20/40 limit games well and believe i could do well at that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few things:

1) Do you have enough sessions against the donkeys to be sure that you are not profitable? What is the 95/99% confidence interval around your win rate?

2) Do you have enough sessions against solid players to be sure that you are profitable? What is the 95/99% confidence interval around your win rate?

3) Why are there still 6 players to the flop? Are you raising enough? Are you just putting in 3x-5x even when there are limpers in front and you have a premium hand?

My advice is to learn how to beat low limit first. As a limit player, I'd salivate at all the chances you have to protect large pots / make potents make incorrect calls because you can size your bets properly.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing B&M low NL games that are full of complete donks. 6 players per flop, a total messy game. No matter how i play i cant consistently win and i believe i am a decent player, and am a winning player when playing against solid players. I have just had trouble keeping a solid bankroll while being in college with bills and such. I am a student of the game and work very hard at it.

my question would be: should i wait and build up a bankroll, or keep playing the low games that are pretty much a crapshoot?

ive scouted the 20/40 limit games well and believe i could do well at that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

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"move up so we can take your money"

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Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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"move up so we can take your money"

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dude, the moment's gone...truly, you have a dizzying intellect

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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Move up so people will respect your raises.

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Someday this reply will get old. But probably not in my lifetime.

Re: Losing at low limit or step it up to high?
 

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It kills me that you have to weed through 70% sarcastic posts to get to the 30% that actually help the OP. There's a reason so many non 2+2ers think we're all snobs here.

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AMEN!