2 50/100 hands commerce
 

one thing to note about the game is that there is a mega fish in the game with a ton of money, who will pretty much call anything before the flop, has no regard for money, and will often raise preflop. this has definately changed the dynamic of the game.

i have a somewhat TAG image preflop however i have shown some nice bluffs.

1)effective stacks 25K.
villian is tricky, very good player who is more then capable of making moves.

villian limps in LP, fish limps on in CO, SB calls, i raise $400 in BB with 77. (not standard but felt like mixing it up and building a nice pot in case i flopped good, default play is to check in this spot)

everyone calls.

flop 10-5-3 rainbow ($2500)

i lead for ~$1500 villian is only caller.

turn 10 putting two clubs on board.

i check call $1200...?

river blank 8.

i check villian fires 5K.

thoughts?


hand 2) fisherman greg is UTG, antonio esfandari is MP, fish is LP i'm on button with black AA.

UTG limps, MP limps, fish limps, i raise make it $500 all call.

flop comes 2-3-4 two hearts ($2000)

UTG checks, antonio leads for $600, fish calls, whats your plan?







ok now say we call flop and UTG (who is a very solid old school player, excellent hand reader, all around solid player) also calls.

turn comes a 7 putting two flush draws on the board and antonio leads for $1600, fish folds and you look over at UTG and he is breathing really heavily...

all thoughts and comments appreciated.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

I think hand 1 is a fold, that line doesn't look much as a bluff imo, why would he bet that small on that great turn if he he had 46/floated you..I guess he could be bluffing with 66, but it seems remote. I think his most likely hand is 88. Think 88 is quite in line with the small turnbet as well. Your hand is quite face up though which of course could make him bluff, but the small turnbet/big riverbet combo doesn't look bluffy to me, looks like a turnbet that is just basically designed to fold out AK/AQ. Sure it could be like an induce for you to checkraise on when you have given up but I find that much less likely from a good tricky player, it's also a bet that is definitely scary to checkraise over, esp with these stacks which makes it even less likely.

In hand2 I either call or make it 2.5k straight.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

hand 1 i fold.

hand 2:

what do you think antonio is up to when he is underbetting the flop and turn after limping pf? and with greg seemingly interested in the pot after check-overcalling everyone? looks pretty suspicious to me and i think you can probably just dump it.

or, since you are getting such a good price, call and hope the river goes chk-chk-chk.

goofy spot, because they can easily turn over 55 and a smaller overpair here.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
In hand2 I either call or make it 2.5k straight.




[/ QUOTE ]

i'm assuming you're talking about the flop.
what about if we call flop and the turn action unfolds as described?

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

i probably c/f flop in hand 1. do you think you get credit for a big hand?

hand 2 i raise 100% because antonio cant really bluff you in this hand with the fish in there too (right?), and getting this pot HU with the fish is worth it.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

Hand 1: I can't really figure out a hand you can beat at this point, and any floats would most likely not be betting that weird $1200 bet on the turn.

Hand 2: I really dislike the flop action of just calling, but given that, I think you should raise the turn. As played on the flop, you will be repping quite a strong hand (like 777), which firstly will make them very unlikely to bluff you, secondly will not drive many of the draws out, as they might anticipate some good implied odds. Surely, the raise will fold out many of the hands you're ahead, but I since you wont get action from those hands either way, you might as well raise.

- AB

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I really dislike the flop action of just calling, but given that, I think you should raise the turn. As played on the flop, you will be repping quite a strong hand (like 777), which firstly will make them very unlikely to bluff you, secondly will not drive many of the draws out, as they might anticipate some good implied odds. Surely, the raise will fold out many of the hands you're ahead, but I since you wont get action from those hands either way, you might as well raise.



[/ QUOTE ]

no one is folding a straight or set on turn.
and i kind of felt like if someone had a big flush draw/pair/straight combo they'd have made a move on the flop.
my biggest concern was both the weak lead by antonio into the field but more importantly fisherman greg's overcall.

and prevaricator, antonio can still bluff/semi-bluff because while the fish is a fish, he generally dumps his hand when serious action goes down if he's not HU.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

My point wasn't that I think straights or sets are folding, but that by raising, you fold hands, you wouldn't get action from either way, and in contrary action from hands that are drawing at something like 20/80 og 30/70 against you. Lastly, you'll have a much easier river (and turn, if they should raise) decision.

Furthermore, I don't think the draws would be making moves on the flop, unless it's really strong draws, given the fantastic odds and the number of players, they would face. I don't give much respect to the overcall - surely, he would be raising any strong hand, so I would mostly put him on a hand like 76 to the nut gutshot hoping to get paid big by the fish's draw, and maybe the strong end of Antonio's range.

Given the bet size of Antonio's turn bet coupled with the flop lead, I think AA is well ahead of his range.

- AB

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

ok.
i think you make some very good points.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

hand 1 is a fold... maybe if you were hu in the pot on the flop, but the flop call looks like a T at worst. Like, 53/64 are possibilities I guess but this is really all you beat. I like a turn fold (I feel like you are on 2 outs most of the time and can't call another bet), definitely fold the river.

hand 2 I like a raise somewhere between 2000-3000. SO assuming you called flop... was the utg breathing heavily when he checked or in response to antonio's bet? I think you have to raise the turn to define your hand. Figure out if you're up against the set/ straight now so you don't have to make a tough river decision. Also makes it tougher for the multitude of draws.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] deep stacks....both hands I raise the turn and don't put another dime into the pot....

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

hand one looks fine as played fold river.

hand 2 i actually like a turn raise and then dont put another cent in. calling flop is fine ofc sometimes, but ofc sometimes its good to raise. as played though i think i make the turn like 5500ish. holla

quick clarification
 

i should have put this in the OP but in hand 2 i only have about 15K.
(and it happened much later so nothing to do with hand 1 so don't try and cheat using that info [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] deep stacks....both hands I raise the turn and don't put another dime into the pot....

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the turn in hand 1? That seems pretty awful to me, you aren't representing any hand, it just seems ridiculous.

All in all these are 2 really good hands to post RBK, you always pick good ones it seems. I am very confused in hand 1, and I probably can't say anything you don't know already. It's a bluff or a monster, and I suspect that the turn bet is a silly attempt to get you to fold air (ace high or middle pair type hands) and on the river he thinks you are kind of strong so he bets harder. It sounds kinda screwy but I suspect it's a bluff (he prob has A4).

In hand 2 I'd just fold. I haven't read most of the replies so I don't know if this is way off base or not, but I just can't see antonio leading into 3 players here w/ less than a pair and you have got the dude breathing hard behind you. While you might be ahead now you could easily be facing a big river bet on a ton of various cards, making your effective and reverse implied odds awful, so I'd just fold.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
but more importantly fisherman greg's overcall.


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah - his call there is pretty bizarre - especially because his limp calling range utg is fairly predictable. if i had to guess i'd say he has something like AJhh/AQhh - but the breathing heavy thing who knows, he does breathe really heavily in general though - probably his strict regimen of commerce food and sitting around.

also, fwiw, i've noticed he's scared of you from the times we've all been in the same game.

btw, i'm raising flop here.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw, i'm raising flop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you view the weak lead as weakness on the part of antonio?
i couldn't tell whether he was trying to induce me to raise knowing the fish would call in between inflate the pot and require me to raise bigger...or if he was just trying to stop me from betting the pot on the flop...
thing was i felt like if i raised and he pushed i'd probably have to fold.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

How often does the 50/100 game run? Just on weekends or also on weekdays?

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
How often does the 50/100 game run? Just on weekends or also on weekdays?

[/ QUOTE ]

its going pretty much every day...although i hardly ever go on weekends so i can't say for sure.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

hand 1: weird turn bet by villain. seems like its either a monster that wants a big pair to c-r and overcards to call. Or, a weakish hand like 67, A4 that is trying to get overcards to fold and set up a bluff on the river if he misses. If you've played a bunch with him maybe you have an idea which it is, based on if you've seen weak leads or monsters from him before. I wouldn't be so quick to fold tho, it depends.

hand 2: I'd interpret Antonio's weak lead multiway as something that isn't the nuts but can become very strong, so a lower set or flushdraw, or pair+OESD, and he wants to build a pot for if he catches a turn card he likes but doesn't want to get blown off his hand by a big raise. I suppose i like flat calling there best (or dislike it least, really) since its too likely you'll get jammed and have a tough decision or they just fold, and i don't want to play a huge pot multiway on a scary board.

good hands to discuss,

-g

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]

Raise the turn in hand 1? That seems pretty awful to me, you aren't representing any hand, it just seems ridiculous.


[/ QUOTE ]

um, if by "ridiculous" you mean: a blocking-type bet that acts as both a value bet (against worse hands that may try to pick you off if they think you're full of it) and a bluff (against some better hands that may fold - e.g. - 88/99) as well protects from giving a total freebee (against hands that put no more money into the pot but may have some equity on the river - e.g. - overcards/flush draw) without committing yourself since the stacks are so deep, then yeah, I agree..... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[FWIW, I do also think a check/fold is acceptable on the turn]

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

I'd fold hand 1 on river, I think from his point of view you have an overpair and that weak turn bet is just trying to get you to stick around and he's bombing the river to try to get some value and maybe make it look like a bluff when you only have to call 1 more bet. Maybe it's an A5 or some gutshot bluffing but he'd have to call that on the flop with 2 players still to act and hit the perfect turn card to bluff so I'd just let him have it.

Hand 2 I kind of like just folding the turn, you don't have much invested and its really an ugly spot especiallly if UTG seems to like his hand and is still to act. If you call here you're really in a tough spot on the river as there's so many ugly cards and none that are really that great for your hand. I wouldn't mind raising normally and checking behind on the river if UTG didn't seem to like his hand so much.

Also sorry to nitpick but

[ QUOTE ]
one thing to note about the game is that there is a mega fish in the game with a ton of money, who will pretty much call anything before the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

you really should raise more preflop I don't think utg or antonio are going to fold for 400 more here too often with the fish in the pot behind them. Getting it heads up or 3 handed with the fish would make this such a better situation.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

Hand i, make turn 6k.
Hand 2 make flop 3k ish.
If you call flop in hand 2, make turn 5k or so.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

if villain is a good tricky player as you say i think i like a call in hand 1 to be honest.

there's a chance he floated and tried to take the turn but i think it's more likely though that he has a hand like 66 or 44 and tried to take down the hand on the turn and fold out overcards. when you called i think it's pretty obvious from your line that you've got a hand like 99 or 77. if he's got 44 he knows he's not winning the pot at showdown and it's a great spot to bluff. i know i would if i was him

i think a ten hopes you have an overpair and makes a bigger bet for value on the turn. if he didnt have a smaller pp than you i think the only other logical read is that he rivered the boat with 88

so yea, call

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

I agree with ansky. C/R turn hand 1 is gross. I think riv is close, prolly a fold tho.

Hand 2 is a tricky one, need to think more altho I think turn is a fold at first glance.

-Mike

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

Hi rbk,

Fold both hands.

Hand 1 is semi-tough on the river, but I like how you played it up to that point, and he made things fairly easy for you on the turn. I mean, it could be a very sophisticated bluff, since your hand is fairly well-defined, but he obviously doesn't put you on a missed draw any more (since he bet 5K).

Hand 2 I'd call the flop and fold the turn, given that I'm assuming you think Greg is fairly strong (hand or draw). Antonio leading a 2nd street is scary, when he knows you should either have 55, 66, or be absolutely loaded to call that flop after he leads into the field. He doesn't expect you to fold QQ here for 1600, I don't think, so you should bow out at this point. The uncertainty of Greg's hand makes it even easier to lay down. Also, now that I think of it, why would Antonio make a bet that prices in a draw, when Greg is very likely to have one? Antonio is super-strong here very often, I think.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think hand 1 is a fold, that line doesn't look much as a bluff imo, why would he bet that small on that great turn if he he had 46/floated you..I guess he could be bluffing with 66, but it seems remote. I think his most likely hand is 88. Think 88 is quite in line with the small turnbet as well. Your hand is quite face up though which of course could make him bluff, but the small turnbet/big riverbet combo doesn't look bluffy to me, looks like a turnbet that is just basically designed to fold out AK/AQ. Sure it could be like an induce for you to checkraise on when you have given up but I find that much less likely from a good tricky player, it's also a bet that is definitely scary to checkraise over, esp with these stacks which makes it even less likely.

In hand2 I either call or make it 2.5k straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like MDMA's analysis and here are just my two cents: your hand is pretty narrowly defined and unfortunately your hand seems to be whats below the profitable calling range on this river. I would probably call here with 99s or better.

I am not too sure what this small turn bet+ river combo is. It seems possible that he could have a hand like A5 or even like A4. A5 might make the play realizing he could possibly fold out 77+ which is what hes clearly losing to at the moment. Just some things to consider I guess.

But I guess A5 wouldnt make that turn bet...

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi rbk,

Fold both hands.

Hand 1 is semi-tough on the river, but I like how you played it up to that point, and he made things fairly easy for you on the turn. I mean, it could be a very sophisticated bluff, since your hand is fairly well-defined, but he obviously doesn't put you on a missed draw any more (since he bet 5K).

Hand 2 I'd call the flop and fold the turn, given that I'm assuming you think Greg is fairly strong (hand or draw). Antonio leading a 2nd street is scary, when he knows you should either have 55, 66, or be absolutely loaded to call that flop after he leads into the field. He doesn't expect you to fold QQ here for 1600, I don't think, so you should bow out at this point. The uncertainty of Greg's hand makes it even easier to lay down. Also, now that I think of it, why would Antonio make a bet that prices in a draw, when Greg is very likely to have one? Antonio is super-strong here very often, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, cero you nailed my thought process EXACTLY on both hands.
guys i hate when people post hands and then never post results, but i don't want to stifle discussion so why don't you guys let me know when you want results.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

Hand 1: The problem with the way you played this hand is that if you determined that you were still ahead on the turn (by calling his bet) i dont see how you dont call the river. If i were you i would fold the turn, or call the river, although i do believe by the details you gave us you are beat (only two hands you beat are busted straight draw or a6)

Hand 2) I think the most important detail you mentioned was the guy who overcalled was breathing heavily. Either he is retarded, or he has a hand. It is in fact VERY rare to see a person NOT IN THE LEAD in the hand appearing nevous (by in the lead i mean in betting terms). You have to ask yourself why was he this nervous if he just called your preflop raise and called antonio's bet? My best guess is that he slowplayed a monster on the flop (set or nuts) and is simply afraid with too many players, and many draws in the pot his hand will go to ruins.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

Hand 1 I think I would've dumped it on the turn. Your hand is almost face up here as 88+ and I don't think he is ever going to bet this turn and then not follow up on the river if he has you beat or not. Your hand may be good, but I don't think he's going to let you see a river for cheap if he can't beat 88. With that said I still think he has a ten here a high portion of the time. So IMO the turn is a fold.

Hand 2 is really interesting, I don't know why Antonius would bet that small on the turn with a big hand on that kind of board unless he was trying to induce a raise or see a cheap turn card. You can make a case for calling, raising, or folding IMO. You didn't really mention stack sizes for hand 2 which I think are really important, if you guys were like 20k deep to start the hand I like a 2.5x raise / fold to shove line. I'll just assume 100bbs though, in which case I'd call or fold I think. Actually I dunno, lol this is a very intriguing hand on so many levels. In Antonious's mind he probably doesn't put you on a very big hand when you just call the flop there, although I think you definitely would play a set or two pair for a flop call occasionally to see a safe turn card. I don't know really what the best play is, so I'll just spot rambling here.

The flop play is also interesting, I don't mind the call but I also think a raise here might be best to control the pot size and test the waters. I guess the problem lies in that Antonius could 3 bet the flop with a draw and effectively force us off the hand, but I think thats a chance we should consider taking to make the hand easier to play.

Also RBK, any plans on returning to the Bike? LATB misses you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
when you called i think it's pretty obvious from your line that you've got a hand like 99 or 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it so obvious? Would it be terrible to play overpair like this on turn? If so I´d like to know why.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also RBK, any plans on returning to the Bike? LATB misses you.

[/ QUOTE ]

if they offer me 5K i'll come back.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

offer you 5K? background please.

results
 

1)i came really really close to calling...had the chips all counted out and at the very last second talked myself out of it (i guess the saying think long think wrong is true).
villian had 75.

2)i folded pretty quickly on the turn UTG called river paired the 2 check check UTG 99>antonio's 55.

all in all i played pretty poorly for the entire 10hr session.

Re: results
 

this is why you should adopt my style of poker, which involves never folding when you have a pair or better. and sometimes with less than that.

Re: results
 

[ QUOTE ]
1)i came really really close to calling...had the chips all counted out and at the very last second talked myself out of it (i guess the saying think long think wrong is true).
villian had 75.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be results oriented but...

OH YEAAA I TOLD YOU SO. IN YO FACE

(kidding)

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

regardless of results in hand 2, i am still trying to figure out who/how the hand was misplayed.

if you raise flop and utg calls, antonio pushes, you are folding correct? and if you raise flop and get two calls, are you betting the 7/nonheart turn? -- calling the 600 bet on flop from antonio on that board makes me think that you must not be running well, or that he is in your head, regardless of whatever megafish was in the game - esp deepstacked.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

after the hand antonio told me his plan was to weak lead have me raise and then push, which is kind of what i figured.
i thought i'd wait for a safe turn and then jack it up...however once he lead again into the PFR and an overcall (by fisherman greg who is a solid good player) i changed my mind.
just didn't think he'd do that with a semi-bluff.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

i guess with your raise on flop and fisherman's likely coldcall he would have plenty of equity w/ a flop push, but it would be a huge bet = he would need some stones. the more i think about it the more i like the play by him...

but at the same time, if he is making these plays often i wonder if overcalling with AA is so bad there by you if he were to 3bet push. what a tough spot - thanks for sharing the hand.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess with your raise on flop and fisherman's likely coldcall he would have plenty of equity w/ a flop push, but it would be a huge bet = he would need some stones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check.

Re: 2 50/100 hands commerce
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess with your raise on flop and fisherman's likely coldcall he would have plenty of equity w/ a flop push, but it would be a huge bet = he would need some stones. the more i think about it the more i like the play by him...


[/ QUOTE ]

there is no way fisherman greg is calling if i raise the flop.