(PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

MP is very loose, and not particularly trustworthy. That is to say, he's not really aggressive, but his bets/raises are more likely to mean a semi-bluff or overplayed made hand. I have a decent read on him and am looking for extra pots to get involved in.

However, the rest of the table is not-tight to loose, and fairly aggressive, so I probably don't get an isolation out of the pre-flop raise very often.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, MP calls, Hero folds.

River: (10.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Scott

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

i'd like more information on the button. if he is really LAGgy you should fold to the flop donk.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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i'd like more information on the button. if he is really LAGgy you should fold to the flop donk.

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Unfortunately, I didn't have much of a read on him. He was definitely loose, probably 50%+ VP$IP, and aggressive, but I didn't have a solid read on his aggression before this hand.

Scott

edit: There were very few raised pots pre-flop, so I didn't really have a handle on anyone's cold-calling ranges yet.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

i guess it looks fine to me. it's late, though, and i'm having trouble concentrating.

bbbushu

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

I hate your flop raise. I'm not sure what the better play is, possibly calling or folding, but it just is worthless except to spew your chips around.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

wackjob,

i agree that the raise looks spewy but for some reason i don't wanna fold and i feel like calling prices BT in no matter what they hold.

bbbushu

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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but for some reason i don't wanna fold

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a distinct dislike of $$$?

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

jeez that's helpful!

at least advocate and defend the fold before you go pointing fingers [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

bbbushu

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

btw, i think this hand would look a lot different if it were cut off right after MP's donk...

bbbushu

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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i agree that the raise looks spewy but for some reason i don't wanna fold and i feel like calling prices BT in no matter what they hold.

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That was more or less my thought process. I was completely confident that I had enough equity against the donkey's range to continue, but I had no idea where I stood in relation to the guy behind me and wanted him out of the hand--or at least wanted an idea whether I was chasing him. I was actually concerned most about the pre-flop raise.

Scott

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

How about folding preflop?
I never raise A8o from co after a limper, and LAGgy players makes the raise even worse IMO. This is not a good multiway hand. I could go for an isolationraise if the blinds were ultratight, and MP was supercrappy.

EDIT: as played, fold to the flop donk

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

Unless the players behind me are all tight I fold this preflop.

Post flop I play it like you.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

Looks good. PF is fine unless Button is highly laggy. Folding flop would be grotesque, (think about your equity) and raising is much better than calling. When the second King hits the turn you are sunk.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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When the second King hits the turn you are sunk.

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something we know ONLY because we know we're going to get three-bet on the flop. OP, i think it's tough to evaluate the information we're getting here because of our bias from seeing the whole HH.

bbbushu

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

I don't think I understand you... why shouldn't the flop action influence our turn decision?

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

when we decided to raise in real-time we didn't know BT is going to three-bet us (and thus that our equity is actually probably crap instead of strong - a claim that rests on the idea that we are about to [finally] successfully isolate the weak player).

i think it SHOULD influence the turn decision (maybe i just misread your response, or something) but i didn't know we were debating the turn.

if we are debating the turn, then i agree with you that the second K [censored] out hand, lol.

bbbushu

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP is very loose, ...and am looking for extra pots to get involved in. However, the rest of the table is not-tight to loose, and fairly aggressive, so I probably don't get an isolation out of the pre-flop raise very often.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then fold A8o preflop.

You're in trouble when you can't isolate on the flop with Bottom Pair and your BDnutFD when Button 3Bs, assuming you're not already in trouble when MP bets into your pfr. Just calling MP's bet and folding the turn would probably be best, if folding outright is not. After Button 3B's your flop raise and MP calls, getting out on that turn that didn't help you looks like you're only logical choice.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

Oh, I see what you mean... Button's flop 3bet is causing people to be results oriented about the initial flop decision... you're probably right.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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You're in trouble when you can't isolate on the flop

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My isolation comment was in reference to pre-flop play. I wouldn't have raised the flop unless I thought I had a decent chance at isolating MP, who I put on a draw at least 50% of the time, and probably closer to 75%.

Scott

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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PF is fine unless Button is highly laggy

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What would you qualify as "highly laggy" in this situation? I don't remember what info I had game-time, but my final stats on the button are 51/19 after 37 hands, with an AF of 2 (all post-flop AFs are 3.75+).

Scott

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF is fine unless Button is highly laggy

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What would you qualify as "highly laggy" in this situation? I don't remember what info I had game-time, but my final stats on the button are 51/19 after 37 hands, with an AF of 2 (all post-flop AFs are 3.75+).

Scott

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For me this would depend on his recent play. 50/20 lags usually get mad and then cool off in cycles. If he was in a steaming cycle, I'd fold PF. If he was in a calmed down cycle, I'd raise away. If I didn't know, I'd probably raise because playing hands is fun.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

As you asked me to respond and I have cooked for the day...

Someone else posted about not playing A8o after a limper in CO and I tend to agree, esp. with the LAG behind you. You want this HU and you want position, as you are unlikely to get either dump it.

The thought that is going round my head is why on earth you feel you need to play these hands in $0.5/$1 games? HU this hands has merit, but not 3-way OOP.

If the games are loose then play more sooteds as you will make some tasty pots with 2-pair or draws as typical donkey will never fold his overcards. Hands like QTo etc. are also profitable for an overlimp as the kicker is enough most of the time if you catch TP, and 2ndP is good enough times too.

A8o is definitely borderline to -EV here; pairing your kicker will still lose a lot of the time which makes this a fold for me.

Just be patient and play the ABC hands, instead of playing questionable hands, play solid and play more tables. It is just too easy to (1) get too clever with players who are actually remarkably stupid and (2) start to believe that thay are so bad that non-profitable hands/positions start to be profitable. They don't.

Back to basics: in loose games play more drawing hands, in aggro games drop the hands that need a cheap flop. Loose-aggro games playing mediocre non-sooteds multi-way is a good way to lower your WR.

OK, getting past the Flop (by the way PF is not a disaster, just cannot see why you feel you need to play it here, when you have many other hands you can play that are much easier post-flop).

The Flop is exactly the kind of situation that makes A8o a loser: difficult to fold but likely you are going to lose, you can make 2-pair of trips and still lose a big pot to draws. Very hard to judge what is going on, and easy to be bluffed off and start to micro-tilt.

LAG has cold-called your PFR, you are donked into and there are all sorts of draws available. Not only is it quite likely someone has a draw but with 2 playing-zone cards (K and 9) you are going to be behind already a lot. If you are not behind you really need to improve as plenty more cards can hurt you by making 2-pair or pair-plus draw. At least you have the soot-Ace making your 2-pair outs valid (no flush and no re-draws) but any Q/J/T or even a 7 almost certainly means you have a re-draw against you or drawing dead.

If 37-hand LAG (tell me this is a joke) has any part of this he wont fold. In fact, if he holds a hand like QT/JT he can very correctly call your 2 bets. If he has an ISD unless it is exactly 56 he can still call your raise, due to the overcard outs (T6 being marginal). While he does not know you only have an 8, he will still play correctly by calling; your raise achieves nowt. If his cold-call PF was total garbage you want him to call the Flop for 1 bet as he is a huge dog, esp. with a dead-backdoor flush.

Mr Magoo (MP) has a draw at least, but you really are fumbling in the dark. You do not say what your read is based on or how many hands you have played.

Ugly spot. I may even just fold the flop depending on how I feel the game is going. With so many possible outs against you, at least try to see the Turn cheap and, with a safe card, raise for a free showdown (and pray LAG folds or has folded). You may get checked-to on the Turn; LAG has position on you and you do not want Mr Magoo to draw free. See how bad it looks?

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

I though Naphand got killed by QQ

Back with a huge post so all is obviously well.

Where you been?

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

Ha-ha-ha. Ah yes, that old post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It feels strange that people seem to have missed my (almost) daily dose of rage/vitriol, but I guess it was amusing at times. Some of the posts were even quite good.

I just decided to play poker rather than talk it, use the 2 hours a day I spent here working on my game. Also took a few months off earlier this year. When I start to leave sessions scratching my head I will post again (in the mid-high stakes section).

Scotch78 asked me to comment, and particularly as he also said that somebody called DarkForceRising had said:

[ QUOTE ]
Nap used to mercilessly ridicule me in the shorthanded forum a couple of years ago. Not unlike a young girl being molested by her uncle...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really want me back?

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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Do you really want me back?

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Just imagine the irreparable harm we could do to all these budding 6maxers. If we act quickly we might even be able to force them all back into full ring and save the games for ourselves.

Scott

PS I agree with you on the pre-flop play; I was actually very surprised when Dane thought it was okay. However, I think you're being too conservative on the flop. I was playing 1-2 tables instead of my normal 6-8 and had a fair amount of table reads. As stated somewhere else in this thread, I felt like I was ahead of MP 50-75% of the time. Folding this flop is insane, and the only argument I can see for calling is to raise the turn for more protection.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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I think you're being too conservative on the flop.

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It's your read, but you may have missed the point.

LAG can call correctly with pretty much all the hands you fear most, he is NOT going to fold them and may 3-bet any draw pushing you off on the Turn; the remaining hands he is a big dog/dead (such as a PP under 8's, backdoor flush, Ax) you want him to call with these, not fold. Your raise on the Flop achieves little IMO, I am not being conservative I am being pragmatic.

Raising the Flop will NOT prevent LAG calling correctly with a whole bunch of hands, but allow him to fold correctly with the hairy-dogs.

Raising a safe Turn is better IMO to sting the draws, which is pretty much what you are banking on. The Turn K is a great card for you in that respect and would be very hard to bluff you out on. Get yourself some cujones del titanio if you want to out-run LAG.

I am actually surprised the BB didn't show up for the party, given your description of the table, which of course makes your PF logic even more questionable. Stop thinking about exploiting individuals so much, start thinking situational. You should have plenty enough opportunities to take their chips without having to manufacture hands.

Avoiding seeing the flop with dodgy hands in games like this unless you can be sure of at least 2nd-pair [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

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Raising a safe Turn is better IMO

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Then you should have made it clearer in your original post that you were advocating that line. Perhaps we could trade poker lessons for English lessons.

Scott

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

First post, last paragraph:

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With so many possible outs against you, at least try to see the Turn cheap and, with a safe card, raise for a free showdown (and pray LAG folds or has folded).

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps trade your iPod for a new pair of spectacles...

See you next year.

Re: (PS $.50/$1): A8o against multiple LAGs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scotch78 asked me to comment, and particularly as he also said that somebody called DarkForceRising had said:

[ QUOTE ]
Nap used to mercilessly ridicule me in the shorthanded forum a couple of years ago. Not unlike a young girl being molested by her uncle...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really want me back?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I said was "Not unlike a young girl who was molested by her uncle, I developed an odd fondess for you guys".

A couple of years ago when I first joined (my current reg. date is wrong- I lost the password to my original DFR account) you guys gave me a "Baptism by Fire" as you put it. I made the unfortunate mistake of using the word gay in my first HUSH post. (Gay being commonly used these days in the US as a crude substitute for lame- the same way badass means good etc...) I was then received a vicious introduction to the internet, filled with all manner of flames that I was ill-equiped to deal with.

After gathering myself I actually began to look forward to your curmudgeonly posts. Not to mention the interesting beer discussions that would evolve in many of the threads you two were in.

Although I didn't post much I followed the HUSH forum pretty closely back then. Good times with simply legendary stuff.

Anyway, I hadn't seen you around in forever. Glad to hear all is well!