So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

I started off with a 120BB upswing, now in a 150BB downswing (pat 9s never holding up on river, whiffing smooth 7s multi-way against pat 10s firing all the way, losing #2 to #1 often, etc.) I have a pretty decent grasp of the game after propping and playing it 3-handed and HU often, I don't feel like I'm especially playing badly. Deathdonkey, TT, 246, answers?

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

I'm setting a new low for personal downswings today. Currently 99bb.

Unlike holdem, variance in TD can change dramatically with your playing style, so I don't think there's an easy answer.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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I'm setting a new low for personal downswings today. Currently 99bb.

Unlike holdem, variance in TD can change dramatically with your playing style, so I don't think there's an easy answer.

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My biggest single session downswing was around 90 bets. The game can be really brutal, thats why I am playing more Stud 8 and Razz now rather than TD, but I expect to be playing live TD 2-7 weekly within the next few months once I move to Vegas. Even with the variance, its still my favorite games - and oddly it becomes more beatable as the limits increase, which I would never say the same for any other game I play.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

variance in this game is quite high. 50bb swings in either direction within the same session are quite common place. don't be suprised if you consistently lose smooth draws to a gambler drawing 4. so much is dependent on catching good obviously.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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My biggest single session downswing was around 90 bets.

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At least I had a break in the middle. Cutting mine off at 98 now, as the biggest fish left and an old friend I'm not anxious to play against sat down.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

Tough to say, I think 150 bb isn't trivial with the softness of these games. You might try and have someone watch you play or talk to any 2+2ers who you have been playing against regularly. Heck, make a video!

-DeathDonkey

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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I think 150 bb isn't trivial with the softness of these games.

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It's pretty easy to get into a game with huge multiway pots and no folding equity, which is what happened to me this morning. Then I went two hours without winning a legitimate showdown, and dropped 80 bb.

It's much easier to be consistent against semi-clued players who I can outplay for pots. Switch to thin value betting and the variance goes through the roof.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

Bottom line: variance is disgusting bad in this game. Ive lost 100 BB in a day like 10 times this year. Won that many bets quite a few times too. Despite making like 2.5 bb/ per hour at 30-60 each day was a sick roller coaster. My win rate at 80-160 is defintly lower and the swings are worse with the increase in crazy gambooolers. Ive decided if I continue to try to make a living off this game for more than a few years im going to go crazy. Theres a lot to be said for handling this variance better than your opponents, i see it as a huge place to find an edge.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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It's much easier to be consistent against semi-clued players who I can outplay for pots. Switch to thin value betting and the variance goes through the roof.

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Its so odd, but this is why I have said in the past if you can beat the low limit games move up... because the middle limit games are actually better, you don't have to work as hard beating the semi-clued players. This is also why the upper limit players should always play a few 1/2 type games on the side to keep their minds fresh.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

TT, gl with live 2-7 unless you get here during 5 diamond, or really feel like you have a large edge in the regular bel game.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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...and oddly it becomes more beatable as the limits increase, which I would never say the same for any other game I play.

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What range of limits are you talking about? Do you think this a general quirk of today's TD games/players, or a result of your own style of play?

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This is also why the upper limit players should always play a few 1/2 type games on the side to keep their minds fresh.

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Yes. Also, I know some of you are playing for a living, so this may not be worth your time, but I will suggest it anyway: Single-Table micro-limit TD or even play money TD. Take it seriously and focus not only on beating the game (which is trivial for any of you), but on crushing it. Don't be content with 15 BB/100. Shoot for 20, or more. Don't be afraid to revamp your game in order to do it. Limp (more) if you have to. Play passive at all stages before the second draw if you have to. The style of play required to crush these games is, I think, unrecognizable from the style required to beat the real games.

I believe that higher limit players (both Pros and Enthusiasts) should occasionally drop down to the lowest of the low in any game, to learn new ways to beat different types of players. Especially in TD, the variety of fish are numerous. Learn to exploit them all. You just need to be focused and take it very seriously, which is something that I understand may be hard for some of you who are used to playing big.

To the OP:

I can't fathom a 150 BB downswing at .5/1 or 1/2. If your losses came at these limits, I think you need to step back and reevaluate your play. One thing I do is play very straight-forward during the first 4 stages of a TD hand (predraw betting, first draw, second round betting, second draw). I rarely get out of line (I think), and any FPS or trickery against other tricky opponents is saved for the final 3 stages (third betting round, final draw, river betting). I try not to put myself in tough spots early in the hand, and by the last 3 stages I usually know where I'm at against most opponents and can mix up my play more confidently. Also, it helps to run well.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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TT, gl with live 2-7 unless you get here during 5 diamond, or really feel like you have a large edge in the regular bel game.

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Yep, large edge. I plan on playing the 40/80 mixed, I'm brushing up on O8 and Stud high/low regular now so I am prepared, and I am quite sure I have a huge advantage at Badugi already.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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What range of limits are you talking about? Do you think this a general quirk of today's TD games/players, or a result of your own style of play?

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Draw is a card catching game, there are enough opportunities for event he biggest fish to catch and win against the strongest draws, its the nature of the beast. So put a few fish in the game, get some multi-way pots going, and b prepared to adjust your game for the huge suckouts that will occur. Its brutal, lower level games are really tough to beat but make you a much better player if you can.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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Its brutal, lower level games are really tough to beat...

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Hmmm... I don't know if I agree with this. At play money and .5/1, it certainly isn't true. I only have about 3500 hands combined there, but I haven't had any trouble (guess my winrate!). I can't imagine 1/2 and 2/4 playing significantly tougher.

I really don't know too much about your play, but I wouldn't be surprised if you have a habit of standing pat too early/often with breakable nines/tens. And maybe you lose too much when your opponents draw out and win the minimum when they brick?

Of course, if by "lower level games" you meant 3/6 to 5/10, then just ignore everything I said. Well, my advice about the nines might still be relevant.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

complete noob just getting into the game... what sort of bankroll is the standard for this game?

also, what resources are available to help learn it (besides the forum of course)? I've read the chapter in SS2... any other books?

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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TT, gl with live 2-7 unless you get here during 5 diamond, or really feel like you have a large edge in the regular bel game.

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Yep, large edge. I plan on playing the 40/80 mixed, I'm brushing up on O8 and Stud high/low regular now so I am prepared, and I am quite sure I have a huge advantage at Badugi already.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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if they are spreading it w/ badugi regularly, I really need to play it more often

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

OMG if you play it more often I really need to come to Vegas more often [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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OMG if you play it more often I really need to come to Vegas more often [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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sick burn

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

Make sure you let me know when you're goin down to play the mix game. I might just know someone who would love to sit on your immediate left. (Hint: It's me)

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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OMG if you play it more often I really need to come to Vegas more often [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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Great! I love it when you buy me diner [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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Make sure you let me know when you're goin down to play the mix game. I might just know someone who would love to sit on your immediate left. (Hint: It's me)

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Lets see.. I'm 4 and 1 for complete and total domination of yo ass to date, you can sit anywhere and I'll be happy [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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I'm setting a new low for personal downswings today. Currently 99bb.


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Just flew past 150. Whee!

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

200+ BB downswings happen in LHE, why wouldn't they happen in TD?

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

"and oddly it becomes more beatable as the limits increase, which I would never say the same for any other game I play."

TT I don't know how high you play but this is definitely wrong. Well, maybe its right to a point, but there is no way 30/60 is harder than 80/160, and 150/300 is ABSOLUTELY harder still.

And yea, the variance in TD is sick; i'll win and lose 70 bb in a session fairly regularly (and obv have done way more than that). By the same token if i lost 150 bb at 2/4 td i'd probably be doing some serious self analysis...

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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TT I don't know how high you play but this is definitely wrong. Well, maybe its right to a point, but there is no way 30/60 is harder than 80/160, and 150/300 is ABSOLUTELY harder still.

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I am not talking about the differences in the middle limits. I have played in the range of 1/2 to 100/200 over the past 2 years.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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"and oddly it becomes more beatable as the limits increase, which I would never say the same for any other game I play."

TT I don't know how high you play but this is definitely wrong. Well, maybe its right to a point, but there is no way 30/60 is harder than 80/160, and 150/300 is ABSOLUTELY harder still.

And yea, the variance in TD is sick; i'll win and lose 70 bb in a session fairly regularly (and obv have done way more than that). By the same token if i lost 150 bb at 2/4 td i'd probably be doing some serious self analysis...

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this was also really wrong on ub. 30 and 80 were the best td games on the site that I played. never got crazy enough to play 150 tho. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

Variance is this bad:

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During current Triple Draw 2-7 session you were dealt 100 hands
Pots won if drawing - 1 of 17 (5%)
Pots won at showdown - 1 of 5 (20%)


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Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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OMG if you play it more often I really need to come to Vegas more often [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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Great! I love it when you buy me diner [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Pfft. I have months of experience in the game, months of study since then, and plenty of the regulars think I'm bad (in some cases, probably, with good reason). I'm definitely situated the best in the 40 mix right now.

--Nate

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

Funnest game in the world when your winning, worst game in the world when your losing. Even worse than razz ... It's nice to know I'm not the only one going on crazy variance in this game.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

I know you guys said the variance was crazy, but a little piece inside of me wanted to think that you all were joking. Egad...rollercoaster.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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Even worse than razz

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My Razz game stats show that its the lowest variance game that I play. I am 5 bb/100 over 17k or so hands, thats a sick winrate!

TT

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

I guess it just seems that your either hitting your hands or your not. Your either on a rush or about to throw your cat against the wall when playing both of these games. Where the hell you got that winrate at ? Stars or Full Tilt ?

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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I guess it just seems that your either hitting your hands or your not. Your either on a rush or about to throw your cat against the wall when playing both of these games. Where the hell you got that winrate at ? Stars or Full Tilt ?

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I disagree... if you only continue past 4th street with the best of it, you wont be throwing too many cats at the wall. Stars for the most part, but Full Tilt plays the same from what I noticed.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

Gentlemen:

This evening I played 10/20 2-7 TD at Ultimate Bet HU and 3-handed, losing, then making back, ~$1K in the process.

Bonus money cleared: $10.

Swingy format, IMO.

TT (is it customary to include the asterisks?) - it would please me very much to see this phrase -

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you wont be throwing too many cats at the wall.

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become a 2+2 staple. Will you join me in trying to ensure that this happens?

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

I thought the variance in 2-7 this past weekend was good, not bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'll probably be back in a few days singing a different tune.

Re: So uh, how bad is the variance supposed to be at 2-7?
 

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I guess it just seems that your either hitting your hands or your not. Your either on a rush or about to throw your cat against the wall when playing both of these games. Where the hell you got that winrate at ? Stars or Full Tilt ?

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I think that the good tripledraw players are more adept at interpreting the texture of the remaining deck than the rest of us. They can properly estimate how many outs are dead, they remember which good cards they threw away and can estimate when others are drawing dead against them, etc.

There's more science to this game yet.