SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

firstly, if you dont know what it is then read this: http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15250

what if the sb hasnt a clue and is only pushing very tight. O.k. so in the long run he will lose because he'll get blinded out. But surely at that particular time when he does push, your calling range in bb has to be tighter then what SAGE suggests to make it +EV. So don't you have to adjust for that, and can't always follow it religeously?

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

I don't think you get what sage is.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you get what sage is.

[/ QUOTE ]

quite likely, would you like to explain?

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

If the SB only pushes with AA and folds everything else, then you should obviously fold when the SB pushes to maximize profit. Duh.

SAGE only lists the optimal strategy. Optimal strategies are guaranteed to be profitable against any other strategy, unlike a strategy where you, say, fold every time the SB pushes.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the SB only pushes with AA and folds everything else, then you should obviously fold when the SB pushes to maximize profit. Duh.

SAGE only lists the optimal strategy. Optimal strategies are guaranteed to be profitable against any other strategy, unlike a strategy where you, say, fold every time the SB pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you read it you will notice that it states that anyone who deviates from this strategy of calling/pushing will have less of an edge. But surely the calling ranges cant correct all the time. Thats what i was saying. No need for your sarcastic comments.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

Ya, the pushing ranges are good. They might even be too tight! I know it sounds crazy. Your calling ranges should be adjusted to the opponents push range. The counter strategy only applies to someone who's using Sage or Nash against you.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the SB only pushes with AA and folds everything else, then you should obviously fold when the SB pushes to maximize profit. Duh.

SAGE only lists the optimal strategy. Optimal strategies are guaranteed to be profitable against any other strategy, unlike a strategy where you, say, fold every time the SB pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you read it you will notice that it states that anyone who deviates from this strategy of calling/pushing will have less of an edge. But surely the calling ranges cant correct all the time. Thats what i was saying. No need for your sarcastic comments.

[/ QUOTE ]
What that means is that if the SB deviates from SAGE (for example, by only pushing AA), he is putting himself at a disadvantage. This is true even if the BB sticks to the original SAGE calling range. The fact that there might be an even more profitable strategy for BB if he knew exactly what the SB was pushing with does not negate the fact that he still retains an edge with SAGE.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The SAGE System is based on what mathematicians call an "equilibrium strategy," which is a strategy that cannot be "beaten" in the following sense: If either player deviates from the equilibrium, his expectation will go down (and thus, in a two-player game, his opponent's expectation must go up).

[/ QUOTE ]

Direct from the Cardplayer article on the SAGE system. If you read it carefully, it makes the assumption that both players are using the SAGE (or equilibrium strategy). So if one person deviates, that person's expectation decreases.

However, the scenario you put forth is that SB is already deviating from it. His expectation is, of course, way down if he's pushing that tight. If you already know he's deviating, and you know in what way.. then it would be foolhardy to not adjust accordingly. Again, that doesn't make SAGE exploitable, or wrong, it just means it won't always give you the most $EV move.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

SAGE is not an optimal strategy it is a mneumonic to help you memorise a different strategy which can at TIMES can be +EV. But is one of only many strategies that can be +EV.

As with most systems it can be wrong. Personally I am not a fan, but for those that it helps, that's great.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, the scenario you put forth is that SB is already deviating from it. His expectation is, of course, way down if he's pushing that tight. If you already know he's deviating, and you know in what way.. then it would be foolhardy to not adjust accordingly. Again, that doesn't make SAGE exploitable, or wrong, it just means it won't always give you the most $EV move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wrote a number of articles on this subject for the 2+2 Magazine last year that were very well received. They deal with both the optimal solution as well as what to do if you know your opponent is deviating from the optimal solution. The magazine doesn't post my very old articles, but if you're interested in them shoot me a PM w/ your email address.

Tysen

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
firstly, if you dont know what it is then read this: http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15250

what if the sb hasnt a clue and is only pushing very tight. O.k. so in the long run he will lose because he'll get blinded out. But surely at that particular time when he does push, your calling range in bb has to be tighter then what SAGE suggests to make it +EV. So don't you have to adjust for that, and can't always follow it religeously?

[/ QUOTE ]

SAGE works with R<=10 which is M<=7.5, in other words, he will blind off in 7.5 rounds.

If your opponent decides to push with nothing but aces, you should actually encourage him to do so and you may even call him if he does. Chances for him to get aces often enough are slim. Every time he folds his stack gets smaller and even if he manages to pick up aces, he might double up for a total of 2 chips.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

I would love it if he only pushes with AA, but I'm not going to call him!

I'm not sure you get my OP, I was just saying that the SAGE system isnt optimal for calling.

Re: SAGE system HU. Seems good, but I have one problem with it.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would love it if he only pushes with AA, but I'm not going to call him!

I'm not sure you get my OP, I was just saying that the SAGE system isnt optimal for calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is really, how accurately can you predict your opponents pushing/calling range? If you have no idea what his range is, you can fall back on the optimal solution. If you blindly follow the optimal solution, you will make money no matter what he does. If he's too loose, you make money. If he's too tight, you make money. But if you do have an idea what his range is, you can deviate from optimal play in order to make more money. If you think he doesn't push as often as optimal play suggests, then you can tighten up yourself. However it leaves you open to exploitation if you are wrong. If you tighten up, you lose out if he's pushing more often than you thought.

Here's a graph from one of my Magazine articles:
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/2...esponsene1.png
This is for HU with the shorter stack = 7BB. If you are the small blind, then you look at the <font color="blue">blue</font> line and look <u>down</u> to see how often you should push depending on how often your opponent calls along the <u>left</u>. If you are the big blind, then you look at the <font color="red">red</font> line and look <u>left</u> to see how often you should call depending on how often your opponent pushes along the <u>bottom</u>. So, if you are the small blind and you think your opponent will call 30% of the time, you should push 100%. If you think he will call 60%, then you should push 57%. If you are the big blind and you think your opponent is pushing 75%, you should call 54%. If you think he’s pushing 25%, you call 19%.

The place where the two lines cross is the equilibrium point where each player is playing the optimal response to the other. Neither player can improve his expectation by trying something different.

Tysen