ATs flop and turn questions
 

Hi all,

I'm at my work so I don't know the exact stats of my opponent and this hand was from about a week ago. I did have a history against this oppenent where he stacked me with 67o against my aces on a A548 board on the turn where he c/r me all in and I called. I think he has a VP$IP of about 30% and a PFR of about 12%. Here's the hand and I wonder how I should have played it on both the flop and turn.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $204.88
MP1: $1099.75
Guido: $748.65
SB: $721.75
BB: $621.95

Pre-flop: (10 players) Guido is CO with : :
UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to $21</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Guido raises to $60</font>, 2 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($129, 7 players)
MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Guido bets $100</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to $200</font>, Guido?

I called.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($529, 7 players)
<font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises all-in $839.75</font>, Guido?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

you have AT of spades or clubs?

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Clubs I assume since the As is on the board. Shove flop.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

And reraise more preflop

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Call. His betting isn't telling a consistent story. His mini check raise on the flop looks like a value bet- but then on the turn he overbets as though he wants you to fold. Of course, you're representing exactly what you have so he may be betting for value.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clubs I assume since the As is on the board. Shove flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


ooops of course he has the AcTc.

flop call is fine and correct IMO.

turn we are getting slightly better than 2:1, but you have to assume youre behind, most likely to a set. i think you can fold this fairly cheerfully.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

1. If you're going to reraise preflop, reraise to ~$70. I'd probably just call though.

2. You are in a good spot, and I'd be looking to put money money in. Lots of people check/min raise c-bets, it doesn't mean a great deal. You also have fold equity, a good draw, and even a possibility of being ahead. So if I could find a way to put my money in here, I probably would.

3. Fold turn as played.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

push the flop.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

oops, mis read board. as played i reraise flop/push

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clubs I assume since the As is on the board. Shove flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


ooops of course he has the AcTc.

flop call is fine and correct IMO.

turn we are getting slightly better than 2:1, but you have to assume youre behind, most likely to a set. i think you can fold this fairly cheerfully.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think the flop call is correct for the following reasons:

1. against hands like AK and AQ (highly likely) we are only going to win money here if we make our hand (hit a T or teh flush). by pushing the flop, we at least have SOME fold equity in this spot since has has another 7-800 behind. He could very fold AJ or AQ and a hand like ours.
2. since we assign a low prob to hands like A2 and A3, 3 betting is not that great a problem even if it folds our worse hands..

the main reason why were 3 betting here is to fold our hands that may have ours beat since of the hands that are CR this flop, ours is on the lower end of the spectrum but their hands are not THAT strong, so they may fold + we have tons of equity by causing a fold or by making our hand.

how does this change if stack sizes are different?

IMO this is a clear call if after the 200 CR he had like 300 left.

the more he has behind, the more likely we should push here.

if you both had like 2500 behind... i would call since a 3 bet is too much risk for reward and we cant raise to 800 and fold to a push.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

I'd just push the flop.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Why is everybody assuming he has the flush draw?

I would usually just call PF.

AQ+ isn't going anywhere, so I don't see why you would push the flop....

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

You guys are nuts for trying to bluff the flop here, call is fine.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Pooooooosh da flop

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pooooooosh da flop

[/ QUOTE ]
As a bluff, for value, or just to make the hand easy to play?

The last reason is the only one that makes any sense to me, as well as metagame, I suppose.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pooooooosh da flop

[/ QUOTE ]
As a bluff, for value, or just to make the hand easy to play?

The last reason is the only one that makes any sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's combo for sure Jim. I guess it's a semi-bluff here. You've got to assume that your T is live and that your clubs are to da nuts. He should probably muck AJ/AQ, so you have FE for sure. It's like pushing AJs on a 8 high board... the guy will fold overpairs, and you've almost always got one overcard.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
He should probably muck AJ/AQ

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I don't think there's any chance he folds AQ, if he played like this, and only a slim chance he folds AJ.

Again.. I'm not saying that making the hand easy to play doesn't have some value, it definitely does, and it's always nice to be seen putting your stack in the pot, but I think in a vacuum, a call here is clearly better.

Not to mention the times when he plays a draw, like this.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Word. IF he plays AQ or AJ like this, I doubt he mucks it. Raise/fold with those hands is pretty awful, and I'd need a read to assume he would do that.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Jim, all three [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

I'd raise to 65-70 preflop so that I could bet 130ish on the flop and never plan on folding. I'm ahead or dominating combo draws, and I have tons of equity vs everything else. I really hate calling and seeing only the turn; though his minraise sucks so bad the worst you can do is call and just muck the turn I guess.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Hi all,

Thansk for all the replies so far. I had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as most of you figured out.

I think there are some different ways to play this hand preflop. The amount of my raise is most of the time around 65. Sometimes 70 sometimes 60. This time it was 60.

Calling preflop is defenately an option but I probably raised because he had raised a few times in a row and wasn't buying it anymore.

A lot of you said that you would push the flop. I don't really see what that accomplices. A better hand except AJ or maybe AQ isn't going to fold so why go all in? I don't really mind a 2-5 outer chasing with horrible pot odds, so why force him out? On the other hand it makes the hand easy to play [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], no more tough turn decisions. I do think the flop call was the best play up to this point. At least nobody has convinced me that pushing is better.

What about checking the flop?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling preflop is defenately an option but I probably raised because he had raised a few times in a row and wasn't buying it anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just about the worst imaginable reason to reraise pf unless you are pretty certain they are raising because they are on tilt.

Pushing the flop is almost LOLish becuase if he folds then you had him [censored] crushed and if he has something worse worthy of calling your push then what's the problem with letting him bet it on the turn for you.

On the turn it's probably -EV to call but since you have nut outs it can't be too huge of a mistake and in reality I tend to err on the side of calling with hands that have redraws even if I suspect it might be a mistake...

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Knowing his flop action (in conjunction with the pf action) in his 76o hand and other similar hands would really help in creating a guess at his range for this hand.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

yup, shoving this flop is what people do with this hand when they either cant or wont take the time to actually think about it.

i suppose calling the turn cant be toooooo horrible but i think its a fairly easy fold though.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

I didn't realize this was full ring at first and while I have no idea what 3/6 full at party plays like, I'm going to assume that it makes it less likely for him to be getting out of line (semibluffing/bluffing) and barring further info I find it hard to justify a turn call.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

As far as the 67o hand he limped and I raised about the pot and he called preflop. The flop went check, bet, call. Normally I bet about 2/3 to 4/5 on the flop. I don't know the exact amount from this time. On the turn I bet certainly 1/2 the pot but I don't know how much exactly and he want all-in.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

It's not full ring, the handconverter messed up and I changed a few things, forgot this one. It's a 6 max table.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is just about the worst imaginable reason to reraise pf unless you are pretty certain they are raising because they are on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? You only look at his stats and say: Well his PFR is x and I'm gonna 3-bet him when I get ATs or 66? I think looking at someones table image is very important as well as your own of course. When I see someone raise a lot of hands in a row and I get a decent hand and I have position, I start re-raising him more. I don't think that's bad poker at all. Just looking at someones stats after x hands isn't good poker, at least you can do better than just that I think.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

i dont think its a bad idea to check this flop at all in fact thinking about it id prob check the flop often

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Does it matter to you that I 3-bet preflop?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter to you that I 3-bet preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would make me even more likely to check.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Why?

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think its a bad idea to check this flop at all in fact thinking about it id prob check the flop often

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the flop is something I do often here.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Can you explain why?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

He is unlikely to have a weaker ace, though it is possible. The likelihood is, if you are ahead then he has 2 or 3 outs to overtake - and some of his outs may be counterfeited, and you usually have a re-draw anyway. If you are behind, then he has a good hand so isn't going anywhere, but you have a decent chance to improve. If he has KK-JJ or something then he may well call one bet, then fold if you bet again. Who knows. But I suspect you wouldn't keep firing to a/i unless you improve, and you often get more value from underpairs if you check the first time. Getting frisky after checking the flop may make villian think that you have a big hand (AA, maybe AK) or not much, depending on what cards hit - but you often get looked up anyway.

All this depends on a lot of things, but the key is you don't neccesarily lose much by checking, and you save yourself something against better hands. You may like being a/i on the flop against AK or AQ but if you don't have any FE then it's not optimal. You can also induce bluffs if villian happens to have nothing.

Obviously, if villian has AQ and you spike the Kc, for example, then you probably win less by checking the flop but most hands that would call the flop will pay off a fair bit from the turn onwards anyway if you improve.

Re: ATs flop and turn questions
 

Why pushing flop doesn't have folding equity from AQ and AJ. Hero reraised PF and push represents strong, but vulnerable hand ot a hand that hero has. Anyway, I would push this flop most of the time since hero has at least 9 and possibly 11 outs.