Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

I have been looking for better spots to accumulate chips later in MTT's lately - villain is somewhat tricky so I play a little WA/WB....standard or spew?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1500/t3000
(Ante: t150)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t33249
UTG+1: t22162
MP1: t19684
MP2: t62675
MP3: t34281
CO: t35365
Hero: t58969
SB: t17285
BB: t45231

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t7500</font>, SB folds, BB calls t4500 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t13350)</font>.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t17850, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t17850, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets t6000</font>, Hero calls t6000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t23850)</font>.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t29850, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets t15000</font>, Hero calls t15000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t44850)</font>.

Results:
Final pot: t59850

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

why are you 'slowplaying' your hand on the flop? You need to bet it. As it is, you're letting the villain taking the betting lead

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

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Planning on folding to a push?

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

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Planning on folding to a push?

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On a two-tone, probably not. Put him on a strong club draw. Slight disadvantage, but I'll felt second pair, get it right sometimes. Guess wrong, oh, [censored], walk, get a smoke, fire another up.

Generally won't do that against most opponents tho.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

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Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

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Planning on folding to a push?

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On a two-tone, probably not. Put him on a strong club draw. Slight disadvantage, but I'll felt second pair, get it right sometimes. Guess wrong, oh, [censored], walk, get a smoke, fire another up.

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I do think this is better - I had a feeling he was calling preflop planning on making a move postflop since I had been quite active stealing blinds but I think I went a little chicken not wanting to call a push with second pair but not wanting to fold it either, thus my check behind. Stack sizes here are perfect for a bet/call line though.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

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I guess my real question about this line is why is it better to give the free card on the turn instead of the flop if I am planning to give one at some point in the hand anyways?

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my real question about this line is why is it better to give the free card on the turn instead of the flop if I am planning to give one at some point in the hand anyways?

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1) We can take the pot right there

2) People pay for flush/str8 draws w/ 2 cards to come WAY more often than on the turn

3) If they pay for it on the flop and miss, we can charge them again on the turn if we're not pussies

4) There are a lot more scare cards than any club, any card higher than 8 (other than a Q) sucks too

5) Why are we planning on giving a free card at some point in the hand? I rarely plan on that...

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my real question about this line is why is it better to give the free card on the turn instead of the flop if I am planning to give one at some point in the hand anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) We can take the pot right there

2) People pay for flush/str8 draws w/ 2 cards to come WAY more often than on the turn

3) If they pay for it on the flop and miss, we can charge them again on the turn if we're not pussies

4) There are a lot more scare cards than any club, any card higher than 8 (other than a Q) sucks too

5) Why are we planning on giving a free card at some point in the hand? I rarely plan on that...

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So it seems that consensus is that barring something weird/stupid from villain or some kind of really sucky turn card we are planning to felt 2nd pair here bet/calling flop and/or pushing turn?

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

Well, not c-betting on that flop pretty much sucks IMO. You probably take it down right there and at this point I don't mind it. Checking behind can give him more chances to bluff at the pot, but I hate most cards on the turn and river. I'm not saying we have to felt 2nd pr here, but calling down is not the line I would take.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

I think you played it fine. So funny how people think there's only one correct way to play a hand. Mixing it up is often necessary, especially against tricky opponents.

Taking this line will turn out to be the best play if he ends up betting away 1/4 of his chips with low PP or worse 8 thinking he is ahead.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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I think you played it fine. So funny how people think there's only one correct way to play a hand. Mixing it up is often necessary, especially against tricky opponents.

Taking this line will turn out to be the best play if he ends up betting away 1/4 of his chips with low PP or worse 8 thinking he is ahead.

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There is a right way to play a hand and it's measured by EV. C-betting that flop is +EV because he folds a large portion of the time. We got lucky because if villain didn't hit the flop, the turn or river didn't help him either. He also bet out about 1/2 of his chips when we have no idea where we stand. Betting the flop is +EV and checking w/ the intention of calling every street I'm pretty sure is -EV w/ some reasonable hand ranges post flop. I'm at work so I can't stove it.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

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I think you played it fine. So funny how people think there's only one correct way to play a hand. Mixing it up is often necessary, especially against tricky opponents.

Taking this line will turn out to be the best play if he ends up betting away 1/4 of his chips with low PP or worse 8 thinking he is ahead.

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There is a right way to play a hand and it's measured by EV. C-betting that flop is +EV because he folds a large portion of the time. We got lucky because if villain didn't hit the flop, the turn or river didn't help him either. He also bet out about 1/2 of his chips when we have no idea where we stand. Betting the flop is +EV and checking w/ the intention of calling every street I'm pretty sure is -EV w/ some reasonable hand ranges post flop. I'm at work so I can't stove it.

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FWIW I did not think that villain was folding a large % of the time in this hand - if I had c-bet here I would have been making the bet intending to call a push because I thought he was planning to make a move on the pot. I do think that bet/call or bet/push the flop is a better line than the one I took though - I was mostly unsure if I had the balls to call and would have been totally lost if he flat called and it checked to me on the turn

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

Personally, I think it is entirely appropriate to check the flop here for pot control. I don't think betting the flop is bad either, I think either play is defendable. It really depends on your ability to read. If you have confidence in your reading ability I would prefer the check behind.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

So you were scared of a push, so you didn't bet. Yet, you call down more than 1/2 his chips anyway... &lt;sarcasm&gt;oh, you're right, that's a way better line&lt;/sarcasm&gt;

Seriously though, if you think he would do that w/ air then you should call a push. Is he c/r w/ TP, probably not, not betting on the flop and giving him the lead is a bad line IMO. Whatever, you didn't bet so you don't 'know' he was going to push, it would have been more interesting if you had though...