Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

Most people know the description of being Way ahead/ Way behind. For the few that dont, the concept is quite simple. Playing a hand way ahead/way behind means playing it soft in order to get more value from hands that are drawing to very few outs, and lose the least from hands that have you dominated.

For example, say you call a raise from EP on the Button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. A common line to use against an aggressive or passive player is to check/call all the way down, or to check/call the first two streets and bet/fold the last.

This is more commonly discussed in Limit Holdem, but rarley discussed in NL Holdem MTT's. The main reason for this is because the stacks are usually shallow, and the right line is to often bet, bet, bet and get it all-in. However, I still think there are many situations where implying a way ahead/ way behind strategy will prove most profitable. Such situations occur when the stacks are deep compared to the blinds, and Hero is up against a certain type of opponent.

For example, a hand came up about a week ago in the same MTT i posted with the 75o hand. The blinds were 25/50, with ~350 players left of the ~500 that started. It was 9-handed, with effective stacks being 5k. Hero raised to 150 in MP, and CO flat calls. It is folded around. CO was a rather tight-passive player, who had managed to build up a decent stack through nut-peddling. However, he still seemed capable of making thin value bets when it was needed. Hero gave Villain's hand range at 55+, and all High broadways. Hero does not believe Villain would call a 3x bb raise with a really small pair.

The flop came Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets 250, Villain Calls 250.

This call was rather odd. I discounted KQ/QJ slightly, because I thought he would raise with such a hand. I also knew that given Villains description and the texture of the board, (no draws) Hero was either way ahead or way behind. He is way ahead of 88-JJ, KQ/KJ in order of most likley. He is also way behind 33/44, QQ, KK, and AA. I did not put Villain on 89 or 54 here, ever, I just dont think he'd make that call preflop.

The turn was the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks, Villain bets 500, Hero calls.

Now to many this turn card makes it seems like we've hit the jackpot. We've hit teh ultimate trips!!11 In reality, after the bet by Villain, we have if anything only narrowed the amount of hands we're ahead here. I've now discounted 88 and 99 slightly, as I feel hed check behind with those more often. All other hands remain about the same.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, Villain bets 1,000, Hero calls.

Once again, Hero plays this hand passivley feeling hes way ahead/way behind. Many people will question why I did not raise here, but I still feel it was the right play. Villin is calling a raise here, which will be a push, with any hands that we have beat. When he calls, he has us. Almost every time. We of course are also never folding out a better hand, as that means a Full House or Quads.

Villian ended up showing T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and Hero rakes in a near 4,000 pot. I'm all up for opinions. Discuss.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

Note: I rushed this in only a few minutes so I'm sure theres mistakes there. I'll edit it in a bit.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

One thing you might want to add: your starting hand in the example you provide...

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing you might want to add: your starting hand in the example you provide...

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously JJ

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

The board in your example has a number of draws, including a flush draw and some potential straight draws. While they certainly have to be discounted because of your reads, that really isn't a drawless board. I'd be more inclined to view the hand as truly WA/WB if you at least put a rainbow flop out there.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing you might want to add: your starting hand in the example you provide...

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The board in your example has a number of draws, including a flush draw and some potential straight draws. While they certainly have to be discounted because of your reads, that really isn't a drawless board. I'd be more inclined to view the hand as truly WA/WB if you at least put a rainbow flop out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Here's a few mistakes I made ...

MEANT TO READ:

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero holds A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Also: Hero is now ahead of AA/KK on the turn. He has discounted those a good margin, while still leaving them in the possible hand range.




Meant to be rainbow. Took care of that. Sorry, I rushed this and did not look at it twice. With no flush draws and Hero's read that Villain would not call with 89 or 54, this is as drawless as it gets.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

Your turn analysis is weird then. Yes, you can now discount 88/99, but you're now ahead of AA/KK too. Maybe you're discounting those because he didn't reraise preflop, and that's fine. In any case, while I think your ranges are a little too tight for Villain in general, if that's your read, then you probably played the hand right since I'd say it fits mostly WA/WB. If you are discounting AA/KK because of preflop, and QQ isn't possible, and you're discounting a worse Q because he didn't raise the flop, that doesn't leave much in his range, just sets, JJ, and TT. I think, if anything, you are probably not giving enough credence to the possibility that you have a better queen, but I don't feel like doing the math to see if C/C is actually better than betting it out to maximize your value against Qx/JJ/TT.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your turn analysis is weird then. Yes, you can now discount 88/99, but you're now ahead of AA/KK too. Maybe you're discounting those because he didn't reraise preflop, and that's fine. In any case, while I think your ranges are a little too tight for Villain in general, if that's your read, then you probably played the hand right since I'd say it fits mostly WA/WB. If you are discounting AA/KK because of preflop, and QQ isn't possible, and you're discounting a worse Q because he didn't raise the flop, that doesn't leave much in his range, just sets, JJ, and TT. I think, if anything, you are probably not giving enough credence to the possibility that you have a better queen, but I don't feel like doing the math to see if C/C is actually better than betting it out to maximize your value against Qx/JJ/TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I discounted KK/AA a good margin on the turn. Not all the way, of course, as many opponents will still play it this way.

The meat of the discussion I believe is on the river ... what is the best option. I believe its check-call, although I'd love to hear others refute this statement believeing that check-raise, leading out, or other options are more profitable.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

This is such a turn CR (or sometimes river bet) that it's not funny, and you left a ton of chips on the table vs. most of his hands.

This isn't even WA/WB. It would be if you held jacks (you see how durron says 'obv JJ'? That's because that's the hand your line makes perfect sense with.) With AQ, yes you lose to exactly two boats, but he is so much more likely to stack off to you with KQ, QJs, occasionally even aces etc. that you should be calculating optimal bet sizes for his entire stack on the flop, or at least the turn, easily.

edit: this is including your read. Yes, it means you only have #3 of his range of ~6-7 hands and should theoretically be more careful. But this is 25/50 in an online donkament. While it's possible to play it this way once in a while, you're being too cautious.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is such a turn CR (or sometimes river bet) that it's not funny, and you left a ton of chips on the table vs. most of his hands.

This isn't even WA/WB. It would be if you held jacks (you see how durron says 'obv JJ'? That's because that's the hand your line makes perfect sense with.) With AQ, yes you lose to exactly two boats, but he is so much more likely to stack off to you with KQ, QJs, occasionally even aces etc. that you should be calculating optimal bet sizes for his entire stack on the flop, or at least the turn, easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, on the turn, I still think I'm way ahead or way behind. Given Villain's description, he is not calling the turn check-raise with a majority of the hands I have beat. This includes 88-JJ, and a good portion of the time he is laying down KK/AA. I didn't lead out because If raised I don't know whether he's raising with a Q I have beat or a monster ... and I obviously have showdown value. I discounted KQ/KJ slightly because Villain would almost always raise with this type of hand, trying to see where he was on the flop. If he had raised the flop, this is the type of hand I would put him on and I would have obviously jammed.

note: this is not an online donkament. this is a live $100 tournament in which the Villain is tight/passive. (not extremley passive, but passive)

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

it's better live than online, yes. but be prepared for a lot of weird looks, and a big adjustment in your play, after he tables the fifth nuts and you table the third. and honestly, you should still be playing for stacks most of the time.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

I don't understand the WB in this situation. We're afraid of 66,77,88 and that's it. While he could have those hands I'm at least making a small value raise on the river. With the range you have him on there are WAY more hands we are WA of than WB. I think we are leaving chips on the table by not raising that river.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is tight/passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see how the line you took is the best line (or even just a good line) against a normal tight/passive villain, especially in the case where he sees you as an aggressive player (however, his river bet is not really in line with a normal tight/passive: what does it mean exactly? Is he trying to rep a queen and make you fold a hand that is better than TT? Or exactly the opposite: some kind of a thin value bet? neither is in line with a tight passive). There's a very good chance he is paying you more with a hand like TT (and few others, of course) if you simply give him a chance to pay you more. Definitely more than he would pay if you let him and not you make the decision regarding how much to pay.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

To everyone:

Yes, 66-88 is just 3 hands. However, a tight-passive player will rarley call the flop, lead out on the turn and the river without one of these or a hand almost as strong. I think it's awfly imaginitive to believe he'd make this play trying "represent" something or with a middle pair.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
To everyone:

Yes, 66-88 is just 3 hands. However, a tight-passive player will rarley call the flop, lead out on the turn and the river without one of these or a hand almost as strong. I think it's awfly imaginitive to believe he'd make this play trying "represent" something or with a middle pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case why are we c/c the turn and esp the river? The reason he's 'leading' on the turn & river is because you are letting him by checking. I think you give villain WAY too much credit for a hand and I think this isn't really a WA/WB situation because we aren't WB often enough. I'm still thinking that not value raising the river is leaving chips on the table.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, a tight-passive player will rarley call the flop, lead out on the turn and the river without one of these or a hand almost as strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you post a specific hand against a specific player, in which he did just that (well, not lead, but you meant bet when checked to, I assume. He can't lead). That's a bit strange if that's the hand you choose to use as an example for a good line against a "tight-passive", who will "rarely" do the exact thing he just did, isn't it?

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

I really disagree with your analysis of villian's play, he does not sound "tight passive" or a "nut peddler" to me, he sounds like a pure "level 1 thinking donk".

I don't know how you can discount the possibility that he would call with a T9s or a 65s deep-stacked (100 BBs) in-position. Nut peddlers love this because of the times they hit their hands big and get paid off.

I agree with others that you played this poorly. You were fortunate that he played it even more poorly. Everything through the flop is reasonable. I think adanthar's play of check-raising the turn is your best bet --- sure, you might be beat here, but odds are you aren't --- and most donks are going to commit their whole stack with KQ,QJ,QT, or Q9 --- and no tight player is going to call your raise preflop with any lower kicker to their queen. Sure, he will then fold his non-set pairs below JJ, but normally you aren't going to get any more money out of them anyway. This was a fluke that he bet the river with TT, even most donks won't do that. Certainly, his turn bet screams donk as well --- he has no idea where he is at, and won't find out by betting here. His correct play deep-stacked is to call your flop bet (which may not mean anything), check behind on the turn, and probably call a small bet on the river (but certainly check if it is checked to him). If he plays it well, you win very little with your hand.

If you played it check-call on the turn, you HAVE to bet the river. Otherwise, 90% of the time that you have him beat it will be checked behind, especially if you don't think he is on a draw.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

Thinking about this more I'm pretty sure villain is in a WA/WB situation here, not you... he played it badly because he didn't realize this.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

wow, you played that hand absolutely terrible. I don't know what stakes this is at, but at that 2nd queen on the turn, most villians in most online donkaments don't fold Qx there. Not only that, but like in this case, that 2nd queen gives some villians the green light to call you down with a pocket pair lower than queens too. This is what I see in your hand:

1. The queen on the turn does not improve your hand to beat any hands you are behind of, but given the nature of the board, sets/2p/overpairs are usually raised on the flop and that turn card makes it much much more likely that you can get villians stack from a worse Qx. Yes, sometimes you run into a monster, but more often than not you are leaving money on the table by not playing it accordingly.

2. Recently, I found I was having trouble with my overpairs and getting stacked a lot (cash games) and I ultimately decided that I was lead/leading too much oop because it looks so strong, so I started stackadonking (lead flop, c/shove turn) and they are doing better for me (though last 12kish hands only), but in that case this line gets called by tptk sometimes, here, you are never getting called by a worse than a Q if you c/r the turn, adn checking the turn allows him to completely control the pot, which you don't want. So bet the turn. Lots of villians will decided that their pp is good, and Qx never folds, and AA/KK usually call at least one more bet. so bet

3. At the river you should have set yourself up for an open shove. Way too many hands you beat call a shove (Qx) to not do other wise. Seriously, this isn't the time to induce a bluff on the river.

stop being so weak tight.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is such a turn CR (or sometimes river bet) that it's not funny, and you left a ton of chips on the table vs. most of his hands.

This isn't even WA/WB. It would be if you held jacks (you see how durron says 'obv JJ'? That's because that's the hand your line makes perfect sense with.) With AQ, yes you lose to exactly two boats, but he is so much more likely to stack off to you with KQ, QJs, occasionally even aces etc. that you should be calculating optimal bet sizes for his entire stack on the flop, or at least the turn, easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, on the turn, I still think I'm way ahead or way behind. Given Villain's description, he is not calling the turn check-raise with a majority of the hands I have beat. This includes 88-JJ, and a good portion of the time he is laying down KK/AA. I didn't lead out because If raised I don't know whether he's raising with a Q I have beat or a monster ... and I obviously have showdown value. I discounted KQ/KJ slightly because Villain would almost always raise with this type of hand, trying to see where he was on the flop. If he had raised the flop, this is the type of hand I would put him on and I would have obviously jammed.

note: this is not an online donkament. this is a live $100 tournament in which the Villain is tight/passive. (not extremley passive, but passive)

[/ QUOTE ]

As played, what about a raise on the river? I think you played very passively here.

The following may be a different spin from the topic, but I suggest you consider:

For this situation (Big Hands for Big Pots), Sklansky and Miller's green Theroy and Practice book (the first part - manipluate the pot size) clearly describes how to extract villain's entire stack into bet... 2-chunk or 3-chunk options.

In such hand, either you stack off him or he stacks off you. Especially, on the turn, you would assume villain actually had a hand to go allin with (AA/KK/KQ/QJ). If villain is tight/passive, use the 3-chunk option and release the bad news on the river; if he's aggressive, the 2-chunk option will do it.

If our trip Qs beaten by full boat, it's our luck. It's still better than a bad beat.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow, you played that hand absolutely terrible. I don't know what stakes this is at, but at that 2nd queen on the turn, most villians in most online donkaments don't fold Qx there

[/ QUOTE ]

Please read the thread before you post.


[ QUOTE ]
I really disagree with your analysis of villian's play, he does not sound "tight passive" or a "nut peddler" to me, he sounds like a pure "level 1 thinking donk".

[/ QUOTE ]

I know Villain, and had been sitting with him for 3 hours.

[ QUOTE ]
As played, what about a raise on the river? I think you played very passively here

[/ QUOTE ]

The other players were puzzled with the lack of a river raise as well. But given my read of him in the hand I thought I was WA/WB throughout, and the only hands that call me are KQ/QJ, and I believe he would have raised the flop with those two hands. Villain is not limping any worse Q here preflop. Although not the most important reason, I also got to see Villain's cards. (TT) Although Villain at the time did not like my play, he later admited that he would have folded the turn If I led and folded the river if I raised.

I'm not sure where your goin with that book crap so I cant comment.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

I think I would ask myself on the turn (if I had AQ in this hand), regardless what on the river, do I fold my hand (AQo with QQ on the board) if villain pushes on the turn/river?

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

You call that a WA/WB?

No, no, THIS is a WA/WB

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t5155)
MP2 (t1630)
MP3 (t3115)
CO (t6488)
Hero (t2775)
SB (t3445)
BB (t1735)
UTG (t2255)
UTG+1 (t2565)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, SB calls t500, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t1300) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1300) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t200</font>, Hero calls t200.

River: (t1700) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t600</font>, Hero calls t600.

Final Pot: t2900


And this....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t20, Button calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t160</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls t140, Button calls t140.

Flop: (t540) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t320</font>, Button folds, Hero calls t320.

Turn: (t1180) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t1020 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t1020 (All-In).

River: (t3220) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3220

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The board in your example has a number of draws, including a flush draw and some potential straight draws. While they certainly have to be discounted because of your reads, that really isn't a drawless board. I'd be more inclined to view the hand as truly WA/WB if you at least put a rainbow flop out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my first thought too- that it was very strange for him to refer to a 67Q with 2 hearts flop as having "no draws."

Edit: NM...i see that it was a typo now.

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your turn analysis is weird then. Yes, you can now discount 88/99, but you're now ahead of AA/KK too. Maybe you're discounting those because he didn't reraise preflop, and that's fine. In any case, while I think your ranges are a little too tight for Villain in general, if that's your read, then you probably played the hand right since I'd say it fits mostly WA/WB. If you are discounting AA/KK because of preflop, and QQ isn't possible, and you're discounting a worse Q because he didn't raise the flop, that doesn't leave much in his range, just sets, JJ, and TT. I think, if anything, you are probably not giving enough credence to the possibility that you have a better queen, but I don't feel like doing the math to see if C/C is actually better than betting it out to maximize your value against Qx/JJ/TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I discounted KK/AA a good margin on the turn. Not all the way, of course, as many opponents will still play it this way.

The meat of the discussion I believe is on the river ... what is the best option. I believe its check-call, although I'd love to hear others refute this statement believeing that check-raise, leading out, or other options are more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think hes going to check behind you many times, and you'll miss out on a value bet. I prefer leading out on the river and then rethinking the hand if he raises. Your check/call of the turn and then leading the river may confuse him and I think he'll call that bet much more often than he'll make a bet himself if you check(assuming he has a hand like 99 or TT here).

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're being too cautious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Let\'s talk about Way Ahead/Way Behind (rather long)
 

bet turn bet river.

this isnt a good application of wa/wb this is just bad.