Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Villain is 28/21/2.64 after 1500 hands. He tends to be over-aggro, and is quite tricky. UTG is a fish. Comments welcome on any street.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (15SB, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (12BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in $3.12</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (21.56BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 16.68BB, Sidepot 1: 4.88BB)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero???

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I'd raise/call. Looks like an overpair that has problems putting you on a nine since you're a TAG who raised two limpers PF.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

What's the question? You have to raise here and if he 3 bets I'm capping every time. I really doubt he is limp reraising 33, 55, or 66. 78, 93, 95, and 96 are hardly even worth mentioning. This is AA or KK about every time, cap and take down a big pot. If he does have one of those odd hands kick your computer and say "nh".

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Flop is fine. I maybe just cc the flop to encourage people to stay in, but there is a 2-flush, and since UTG is willing to cc 2 more bets, it worked great.

Turn doesn't make sense--not your play but everyone elses. It looks like UTG and UTG+1 decided to slow play turn after fastplaying river? The limp/reraise makes me think UTG+1 has overpair (AA or KK) that he thinks is good against someone with a smaller 2 pair--who limps/rerasies with a 9 in their hand or 55 or 33 (though how can anyone can think they're ahead on this board without trips against 2 other people who are raising). UTG could have another overpair that they weren't going to let go PF no matter what, or possibly UTG has 55 or 33, or A5 or K5.

I think you're definitely ahead of UTG+1 and prolly ahead of UTG, especially since people will go all-in on worse hands (and anyone who runs out of money in themiddle of hand at limit is a lousy player anyway--imagine if UTG had the boat and didn't have enough money at the table to get paid off). So Turn cap is definitly correct, since it's just a side pot with UTG+1 now. Raise river because there is no way you are behind UTG+1 unless god really hates you. If UTG is actually ahead of you, at least get UTG+1 to pay you off.

(If someone was actually playing 78s like this, then there is no god.)

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I think this is a big overpair more often than 55. Raise/call.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

seems like a super easy call. if he has AA he is incredibly bad. doesn't he know 995 flops are kryptonite for overpairs?

edit: also who OVERLIMP reraises AA?

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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doesn't he know 995 flops are kryptonite for overpairs?

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LOL QFT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG is stacking off. I highly, highly doubt he has a better hand. I think a raise is fine. UTG+1 is obviously having fun spewing his AA to the max.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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seems like a super easy call. if he has AA he is incredibly bad. doesn't he know 995 flops are kryptonite for overpairs?

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Dyson, would you honestly just call the river at the table? Just curious, as I consider you to be the best hand reader on the forum.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

yeah i think it's just a call. i really think he has T9s or 55 and there are 3 combos of 55 vs. 1 of T9s and you could really make a case for slowing down earlier with T9s in his situation (especially on the river).

dunno

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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doesn't he know 995 flops are kryptonite for overpairs?

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LOL QFT [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Oh, the puzzles 995 flops bring.


I'm not sure what I do at the table, probably raise. I'm having a lot of trouble putting him on something we're behind here.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i think it's just a call. i really think he has T9s or 55 and there are 3 combos of 55 vs. 1 of T9s and you could really make a case for slowing down earlier with T9s in his situation (especially on the river).

dunno

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But over 1500 hands, I would hope that Ungaurded would pick up on the fact that this guy is wacky enough to LRR a hand like T9s or 55. It just seems way too unlikely to me. Without specific reads saying he LRR'd random [censored] to mix it up (on a somewhat regular basis), I'd assume he's high on crack and spewing AA before I assumed T9 or 55 was what I was up against.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I raise and call a three.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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But over 1500 hands, I would hope that Ungaurded would pick up on the fact that this guy is wacky enough to LRR a hand like T9s or 55.

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I should have mentioned that this is a new move for villain as far as I know, unless I have missed it after folding my trash hand while 3-tabling.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

`how many bets does he have in his stack? some people, will go [censored] it, it all going in no matter what, and keep raising, in a this is my last hand kind of a way, if he has heaps behind and looks like he is going to stay, i would probably just call the river.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

If he's got AA here, he's a very bad hand reader or thinks you're a maniac. I'm leaning towards raise/call on the river.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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I raise and call a three.

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I feel like you posted this hand becuse you lost but without that bias I agree with this advice. LRR looks like AA-KK or something to gambooooool with like 89 or T9s

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I raise/call. This really looks like AA. Only 55 beats you.

Edit: Well, there isn't much wrong with his stats. And since he seems to be knowing what he is doing I might just call here.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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I raise and call a three.

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I feel like you posted this hand becuse you lost but without that bias I agree with this advice. LRR looks like AA-KK or something to gambooooool with like 89 or T9s

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if his range is AA, T9s, 98s, and 55, raising the river is -ev

it's 5:3 that you're ahead but unless he's going to 3-bet you with trips or AA again (WOW), you're not ahead often enough to raise/call.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

miles-

doesn't it have to be k9,q9, j9 sometimes?

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

then at what point do we get to include 33? flop play is totally expected for that hand...

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

seems like a semi-easy raise to me. Who raises 55 on the flop or donks the river with 78?

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

"Who raises 55 on the flop"

basically everone would in his spot?

"or donks the river with 78?"

he doesnt have that ever

did you miss the preflop+flop+turn action?

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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edit: also who OVERLIMP reraises AA?


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Once you think you've seen everything, come play at WPEX. I've seen this there ;P

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I thought somebody mentioned 78 for some reason [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Anyway I think your 10/20 play has made you lose touch with the commoners - it's an overaggro 1/2 player with 1 hand that beats us; and if 'basically everyone' raises it on the flop that must be an AP thing.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Ok, results time... villain indeed had 55. I raise/called the river, and afterwards felt that this was a bad play. I do have enough respect for villain to expect him to realize I have at least a 9 after I cap the turn with UTG all-in, yet he led the river anyway. I felt like I was a bit stubborn by continuing to stick with my "overpair/wtf/people play like tards in huge pots" read. I've had a few hands this week where I hold a semi-monster and overplay it from a results-oriented perspective, so this was a sanity check. I guess I passed, since most of you probably realized that I lost the hand, yet recommended a raise anyway.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I have not posted at 2+2 for some years. My password got lost and I do not want to use my previous username because it will reveal my identity.

Unguarded told me that he posted the 55-hand here. I consider myself as the best 1-2 fix limit holdem player at AP. I have crushed the game the last 17 months.

I think Unguarded played A9 fine and it was quite hard to put me on presto. The main reason I limp-reraised 55 was because it was Unguarded who raised preflop and he is a good player. AP is a quite small site and against the good regulars you just do a lot of things and of course, I did not want to slowplay my monster to reveal my hand. Quite obvious?

Anyway, I think this thread lack in the understanding of how intuitive and complex shorthanded games are even at a very low limit as 1-2. As some contributors assume that I had a big pocket pair is just one big mistake. In this spot I could actually have a lot of hands, which should be obvious given the information of me as an somewhat over-aggro and tricky player. If you lack in this both dimensions, then you can't win much in shorthanded games. I would like to point out the intuitive aspect. I do not use pokertracker and I do not consider shorthanded limit holdem as a very mathematical game. When you are a beginner you probably need to play a rigid style. If you want to make a good living, you just go with your intuition and do not for a moment think that you can play perfect every hand or put your opponent on exact right holding. I think it was Chip Reese who said it in Supersystem. The mathematical right play is not always the correct play.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

"I consider myself as the best 1-2 fix limit holdem player at AP."

congratulations

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Haha, you seem to be a world class player playing 1-2.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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I consider myself as the best 1-2 fix limit holdem player at AP. I have crushed the game the last 17 months.


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why didn't you move up like 12 months ago?

Interesting thread btw.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I consider myself as the best 1-2 fix limit holdem player at AP. I have crushed the game the last 17 months.


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why didn't you move up like 12 months ago?

Interesting thread btw.

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i would honestly be interested in hearing why you have decided to stay at 1/2 ? although i definately have not put the overlimp/reraise 55 into my game yet, you do seem to have some good points on tricky/TAG players..

so how come you dont move up ?

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Actually, the question to me regarding why I play 1-2 usd is not a subject for this thread. But I shall answer it just because I assume there are some readers in this low stakes forum who are quite new to poker and have some ideas to make a living from it.

The swing when multitabling 1-2 is for me around 200-300 usd, earning around 20usd/hour. I do most money from the promotion system.

If I multitabling 5-10, my swing would probably not be less than 3000 usd. I would have to pay more attention to the game, probably multitabling less and face more skillfull opponents. My earning would also be more insecure and rely more from the game than from promotions. I would also have to consider the question of collusion and cheating more serious when the stakes are higher.

Temporarily I play up to 3-6 (few times 5-10) at AP and so far I did not have any problem to beat the game. But my experience from the 2-4 and 3-6 games are limited so I can't say that I would beat the game in the long run. But probably I would, like I also did beat the live game I played for years at 15-30 stakes.

So there are no obvious reason to move up in stakes. I am a grinder who shall secure food at the table and money for the bills. To play 1-2 at AP is for me like a sure bet. If you have poker as your income, you never take any risks. If poker is the game who shall make you rich and famous, forget what I say.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

this thread has really gotten weird

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the question to me regarding why I play 1-2 usd is not a subject for this thread. But I shall answer it just because I assume there are some readers in this low stakes forum who are quite new to poker and have some ideas to make a living from it.

The swing when multitabling 1-2 is for me around 200-300 usd, earning around 20usd/hour. I do most money from the promotion system.

If I multitabling 5-10, my swing would probably not be less than 3000 usd. I would have to pay more attention to the game, probably multitabling less and face more skillfull opponents. My earning would also be more insecure and rely more from the game than from promotions. I would also have to consider the question of collusion and cheating more serious when the stakes are higher.

Temporarily I play up to 3-6 (few times 5-10) at AP and so far I did not have any problem to beat the game. But my experience from the 2-4 and 3-6 games are limited so I can't say that I would beat the game in the long run. But probably I would, like I also did beat the live game I played for years at 15-30 stakes.

So there are no obvious reason to move up in stakes. I am a grinder who shall secure food at the table and money for the bills. To play 1-2 at AP is for me like a sure bet. If you have poker as your income, you never take any risks. If poker is the game who shall make you rich and famous, forget what I say.

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weird i was just reading this thread thinking of responding, but realized there were results and a second page already. i was very unsure about just calling vs popping again i think with A9 i pop one more. there are about as many K9 Q9 down to 98 combos as 55, but i didnt know what to make of the overlimp reraise( wouldnt he just raise K9s after the limp ect? even 55) i like never see that. I think you can rule out AA KK QQ tho after his river lead, i may call just out of confusion with his preflop play and thereafter trying to put him on a hand we lose to, but at the table on this board im sure i raise call. i definately cap turn still tho.

as far as ur swings are concerned DasBusen if u are the best 1/2 AP player thats saying you have a fairly strong skill level (even tho its 1/2) come on get like 1500 bbs for 2/4 or 3/6 or whatever and the swings wont be a big deal, pokers been my only income for like 7 months rite now and I usually only keep like 800 bbs in and cash out regularly. 5 10 admittedly is a bit tougher opponent wise and the dollar amount swings start to seem more significant but COME ON BRO, im a loser so far at Wpex over 30-40k hands and making like 30 bucks an hour/ 800 bucks a week just cuz of rakeback.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Congratulations from me as well. I had no idea 1/2 was so complex. Not sure I'll ever be a shorthanded winner with an unoveraggro style [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

I am pretty sure who villain is and thus assuming that after 1500 hands with him you have the same reads that I have. Such reads would include notes of limp-reraising a lot of different hands such as SC's and lower PP's. In addition he is capable of 3-betting e.g. 65s in the BB with 2 Coldcallers of an UTG raise. So his range given the preflop action is certainly wide.

So against this villain I would expect to see AA or KK just about never. A more likely holding is T9s[2], 89s[2], 55[3] and even 33[3]. Against this range a call is obviously optimal.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Quite good read Oink.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am pretty sure who villain is and thus assuming that after 1500 hands with him you have the same reads that I have. Such reads would include notes of limp-reraising a lot of different hands such as SC's and lower PP's. In addition he is capable of 3-betting e.g. 65s in the BB with 2 Coldcallers of an UTG raise. So his range given the preflop action is certainly wide.

So against this villain I would expect to see AA or KK just about never. A more likely holding is T9s[2], 89s[2], 55[3] and even 33[3]. Against this range a call is obviously optimal.

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To be honest, I don't take notes and go purely by memory. When playing 3-4 tables, I find that constantly taking and reading notes is more distracting than helpful. Or maybe I'm just lazy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

Detailed notes does not help much in my case. Usually you will find it hard to figure out more precisely what I have. In this 55-hand - given the action - I think that a call on the river should have been normal. But with my style I get a lot of extra action which of course also have psychological roots.

Like in this case:
One seemingly donkish hand was played (about this way) yesterday against a winning regular player.
He raised first in from the button, I three bet with A9o from sb. He called.
Flop 998. I bet, he raised, I 3-bet, he call.
Turn a blank. I bet, he raised, I 3-bet, he called.
River another blank. I bet. He called with AK.

I do not think he played the hand terrible, even the last 2 calls was not too bad against a type of player like me. I could have had a hand like JT. I asked him in the chat if he always call down with AK-high. He said he put me on an A.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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I do not think he played the hand terrible

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Care to elaborate why you think his turn raise is fine?

Plz explain what better hands he should put you on that you would fold, and what worse hands you call with besides JT? I cant see any. IMO that turn raise is horrible.

Re: Trips/top kicker vs. limp-reraiser
 

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Care to elaborate why you think his turn raise is fine?

Plz explain what better hands he should put you on that you would fold, and what worse hands you call with besides JT? I cant see any. IMO that turn raise is horrible.

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Obviously he played me more than his cards and he know that I would play a lot of hands the way I did which includes holdings he was way in front of (qt,kj,jt or totally nonsense). He also know that I am capable to lay down a hand I was in front of (like a pp). Because of that reason, the turn raise was not too bad.

I would not had play AK the way he did - and I do not think he have any edge in the long run in his play, but that is another issue. I just say that in the context it was not so bad even if it seems to be way out of line.