Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Do you agree with the following statement?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

The tower falls if the cement mix is substandard and you use warped wood.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

the wording of your quote is horrible. Many people believe that both the bible is false and that there is a creator who made a master plan

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

A massive cooperations towards what? That's the question. Sure there's been massive cooperation. But that's because the bible has been a great way for rulers to gain control of people and get them to do and act as they wanted them to.

A massive cooperation for no other reason than to perpetuate a fairy tale? No, I don't agree with that. If there were no other reason than this, to keep the bible going then I think you have a point. Unfortunately, you miss all the other bona-fide reasons people had to perpetuate the myth.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

WTF does "Pronounce the Bible false" mena?

Do you mean that by this that there is a flase statment somewhere in the bible, or do you mena that every statment in the Bible is false? Or what exactly?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Yeah. The question is kind of odd. Not sure what he means by 'cooperation' or what he thinks the implications are.

Does it require a lot of people believing and reteaching an untruth? Sure.

Is this rare? Not really.

How long did people think and teach that the earth was flat? How many people perpetuate beliefs in UFOs, Ghosts, ESP, etc? The number of believers has no bearing on whether or not something is real.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Sad.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you agree with the following statement?

[ QUOTE ]
...to pronounce the Bible false one must believe a MASSIVE amount of 'cooperation' over centuries took place. An amount FAR IN EXCESS of any other fudging of data known to man.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your survey needs another option: Your statement is too bizarre to be classified.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
An amount FAR IN EXCESS of any other fudging of data known to man.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the key to my answer (which was "no", FWIW). It would be helpful if you stopped thinking of the Bible as somehow unique to all other literature in history (other than it's supposed authorship).

There's nothing unique about a bunch of people being wrong about something and writing down their thoughts anyway.

Have you ever considered what would be required to pull off that B.S. story most Mormons believe?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

I voted no...

do you mean false on even just ONE account or detail? (I believe you would mean..'completely false' as in..it was all simply made up...correct?)

you should define what you mean by 'cooperation'

a conspiracy of sorts? with hundreds or thousands or even more (I'm thinking of witnesses to supposed miracles and such) people consciously contributing to deception?...(I believe that there are other more reasonable ways to explain what happened in these cases, than that so many people knowingly contributed to the lies.

huge amounts of people with conscious intents to decieve people is not needed for the development and to a greater extent advancement of a religion...

if it IS needed, then the development and advencement of other religions would seem to mean that it is indeed possible...unless of course we've determined the development and advancement of christianity would require a far greater amount of conscious intent to decieve people (or whatever you define as 'cooperation') than other religions...it seems that you would hold this to be true..

why is that? (I probably don't know as much about the early development of christianity and other religions to make a fair assesment..so that is a genuine question)

it COULD also be developed with NO people with a concious intent to decieve people if the people at the very beginning actually believed what they created in their minds..this, however, I would say is very unlikely...I don't know nearly enough about the early development of religions such as Mormonism, Islam, and Christianity to make a confident assesment, but I would guess that at some of the earliest points in the developments of these religions, there was a conscious intent to decieve people.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more predictable than sad. Or is it sad because txag is so predictable?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

So far it's 14-3 for "No". Only txag and his two gimmick accounts (Carded and Sharkey) have voted "Yes" so far.

Another win for the heathens.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

He is sort of quoting me. But not the part about EVEN IF there has to be a massive conspiracy for it to be false ONLY A COMPLETE IDIOT WOULD THINK THAT THIS IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT IT IS NOT FALSE.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ONLY A COMPLETE IDIOT WOULD THINK THAT THIS IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT IT IS NOT FALSE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's your answer for why he continues to repeat your quote.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Depends on how you define "massive cooperation". If Txaq tells his kids that the bible is true, and then they all tell their kids, and so on for generations... it will at some point go from a silly cult-like belief to a widely-held one. All it takes is a few delusional people at the beginning.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

I don't understand the question. "False" in what way? I assume you mean "false" in the sense of "things that the Bible says happened didn't really happen." In that which case, no, it doesn't take a massive conspiracy for a bunch of people to be hugely incorrect about something. The geocentric universe and the children's game "telephone" both spring to mind as different but germane examples here.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

All things considered, this wouldn't really be very hard. This was well before the information age, and most of the population was illiterate. The church was a large and powerful structure with government-like power, and recognized as the rightful authority on scripture. If the church hierarchy was at all powerhungry and loose in morals (as history suggests it was), it's not that hard to believe that the bible could be systematically edited. By today's standards it would be cake.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

txag,

have you ever heard of the Sai Baba? Because his existence and following, even in this modern age, proves how little both you and Mr. Sklansky understand human nature and history.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Since I can replace the Bible in the quote with quran or vedas or Tipitaka or <insert text here> I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Change that last line to: "proves how easily these fables can arise and gain a following, without widespread conspiracy".

I'm just getting [censored] off at txag's insistent assertions, that would disappear if he put a millisecond of thought into the issue. His posts are motivated by his desire to believe, not the desire to expand human reason and seek out the truth. He picks and grabs whatever he thinks supports his belief, with no regard for its validity. Which God, if he existed, would doubtless find weak and pathetic. I think even BluffTHIS would agree with me here.

There are some decent arguments in support of God, but while people like txag are taking the low road you'll never hear them. He shames his faith by putting forth such absurd arguments.

The other thing that [censored] me off was Sklansky's (of all people) support of his absurd position.

End of rant. I'll be nice for a month now.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Here is what we know:

1. There are over 300 prophesies in the Old Testament concerning the Messiah which were fulfilled by Jesus. Here are some of them:

Genesis 22:18 says the Messiah would be the seed of Abraham.

Genesis 21:12 says the Messiah would be born through the lineage of Isaac.

Numbers 24:17 says He would come from the lineage of Jacob.

Genesis 49:10 and Micah 5:2 say He would come from the tribe of Judah.

Micah 5:2 also says He would come from Bethlehem, which was fulfilled when Jesus was born there.

Isaiah 11:1 says He would come from the lineage of Jesse.

Jeremiah 23:5 says He would come from the lineage of David.

Psalm 72:10 and Isaiah 60:6 say He will be presented with gifts from the kings of Sheba and Seba, which was fulfilled upon his birth.

And of course, the book of Daniel contains many Messianic prophecies as well. We know by analyzing the Dead Sea Scrolls that Daniel was written centuries before Jesus’ lived.

2. We can confirm several important details of Jesus’ life through the writings of early historians, many of whom were not Christians and did not support Christianity. Some of these early writers and historians are as follows:

Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (born 52-54 A.D.)

Lucian of Samosata (lived in 2nd century)

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born 37 A.D.)

Gentile writer Thallus (writing in 52 A.D.)

Phlegon (first century historian)

Justin Martyr (writing in 150 A.D.)

3. Early Christians suffered persecution even to the point of death for their beliefs. We know this also through the writings of early historians, such as the ones mentioned above. Yet even still, the church grew exponentially and other religions disappeared.

4. The early apostles and church founders did not grow rich and powerful because of the church. They also suffered because of Christ and died willingly died horrible deaths. Peter even asked to be crucified upside down because, as he put it, he didn’t deserve to die in the same manner as his savior.

But this isn’t sufficient evidence to confirm the truth of the Bible, you say. That’s not my point. We gather this information from sources apart from the Bible, so it is with this knowledge that I ask you the following: If a) it’s not true and b) it’s not a conspiracy, what is your theory on the rise of Christianity?

How did it happen?

How could it have happened?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Your prophecies are nonsense, on many levels. As is the large part of your "historical evidence". Many intelligent and learned Christians agree with me, so I have no interest discussing it. Perhaps someone else can explain it to you.

As for the rest of it, they are reasonable questions. But it's not my job to teach you history or psychology. If you answer my post:

[ QUOTE ]
txag,

have you ever heard of the Sai Baba? Because his existence and following, even in this modern age, proves how easily these fables can arise and gain a following, without widespread conspiracy.


[/ QUOTE ]

then I'll answer yours. Explain to me how a known fraud can get ten million committed followers in this scientific age, without a " MASSIVE amount of 'cooperation' over decades. An amount FAR IN EXCESS of any other fudging of data known to man."

Can you see the parallels between this and the Jesus story? Can you see a how a myth gets replicated, and gains fervent believers? If not, do you realize this happened in every ancient civilization on Earth, and that some of these religions (for example, Islam, which you shun, and Hinduism, which you shun) also have hundreds of millions or billions of followers, and holy books, and fulfilled prophecies, and martyrs. Don't you see that those SAME arguments you use, if logically valid, can be equally used to undermine Christianity?

It's a big world out there. Open your eyes, and get back to me when you have.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Considering the state of Christianity today, things could have been a lot worse.

That I'll grant you, txag, where other atheists won't.

But there's no doubt about the exploitation that they got up to over the centuries and that they still do get up to today.

There had better be a damn good reason. Can you state them in a sustainable proof, without faith-derived bias?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

1) you've started long discussions on the prophesies before...I forget which thread it's in...but I'm sure we've discussed it before..

2) what does this have to do with cooperation or conspiracy?..I agree that this guy we call Jesus probably existed.

3) yes..they probably believed in their religion..just as muslims who give their lives for theirs.

4)again...I don't know of specific people's motives, so they may have consciously decieved people, but I would guess that most of them truly believed

How does all of this back up your argument?..none of this seems to show signs that a huge conspiracy was needed.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Compare the religions you mention to Christianity:

How many of them were founded following the death of their "founder"?

If Christianity isn't true and isn't a massive conspiracy, to whom can you point as the persuasive one who fooled the naive?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. Early Christians suffered persecution even to the point of death for their beliefs. We know this also through the writings of early historians, such as the ones mentioned above. Yet even still, the church grew exponentially and other religions disappeared.

4. The early apostles and church founders did not grow rich and powerful because of the church. They also suffered because of Christ and died willingly died horrible deaths. Peter even asked to be crucified upside down because, as he put it, he didn’t deserve to die in the same manner as his savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these the only cult members to ever die rather than renounce their beliefs?

The Heaven's Gate cult members all killed themselves, does that increase the likelihood that their beliefs were true?

Which is more probable if we consider the death of Peter?

A. He died because Jesus was the Son of God.
B. He died because he believed Jesus was the Son of God.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Christianity isn't true and isn't a massive conspiracy, to whom can you point as the persuasive one who fooled the naive?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are sill persuasive ones fooling the naive. They are called missionaries.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

txag, you're not doing a very good job of showing how this "information" you provide relates to your OP and whether or not a huge conspiracy is needed.

and you still have explained what you take parts of the quote to mean..

please tell us what you are considering 'cooperation'.. and what 'false' means there

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Compare the religions you mention to Christianity:

How many of them were founded following the death of their "founder"?

If Christianity isn't true and isn't a massive conspiracy, to whom can you point as the persuasive one who fooled the naive?

[/ QUOTE ]
The naive fool themselves. That's the whole point that you're not getting.

Islam didn't become a bona fide religion until after Muhammed's death. He had followers just like Jesus. He was also considered a prophet while alive. And 1.3 billion people believe in him today. Must be a conspiracy, right? I don't know enough about Hinduism to offer any insight.

Does your whole point rest on the idea that the religion was founded after his death? You're really grasping at straws here. If anything, it shows that someone was smart enough to invent a good fable. Or that a story about a spiritual man got twisted in later decades and turned into a religion, perhaps for the purposes of rebellion from occupiers. Not that I'm saying that happened. But what does founding after his death have to do with anything?

You still haven't offered an explanation for the Sai Baba.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

So your theory is that Jesus existed and the church founders truly believed he was resurrected three days after his death. Do you believe they were mistaken? If so, how do you explain the 500 people Jesus appeared to at one time? If this didn't happen, then the church founders were lying. What would be their motivation for lying? They didn't gain power or money from it, they died because of it, and unlike the beliefs of radical Islamic terrorists there, would have been no reward waiting for them in heaven. So why do it?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

So what is your theory on the growth of Christianity?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Which would be a massive conspiracy, unless you can point to one person who deceived us all.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Who wrote the Koran? One guy.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So your theory is that Jesus existed and the church founders truly believed he was resurrected three days after his death. Do you believe they were mistaken? If so, how do you explain the 500 people Jesus appeared to at one time? If this didn't happen, then the church founders were lying. What would be their motivation for lying? They didn't gain power or money from it, they died because of it, and unlike the beliefs of radical Islamic terrorists there, would have been no reward waiting for them in heaven. So why do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact is txag, almost none of this verifiable. Not Jesus appearing. Not the 500 people who claimed to have seen Him do so. Not what the church founders did (or didn't), believe. It's not even 100% verifiable that Jesus existed at all! Although I do think most historians tend to agree that there was a man named Jesus around this time.

You are putting the cart before the horse left and right. You're presupposing one thing in order to lay claim on a subsequent proposition. You can't do that! Well, maybe YOU can... It's just not the way the vast majority of logical people would go about it.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

<font color="blue">Who wrote the Koran? One guy. </font>

You're avoiding the question. Explain why over ONE BILLION people believe in Islam. According to you:


[ QUOTE ]
...to pronounce the Bible false one must believe a MASSIVE amount of 'cooperation' over centuries took place. An amount FAR IN EXCESS of any other fudging of data known to man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is the case for Muslims?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

Islam was founded by one man who gained power and wealth because of it.

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

So what is your theory on the rise of Christianity and the growth of the Christian church?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Islam was founded by one man who gained power and wealth because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Buddhism is a mirror effect of Islam? What does that make Christianity? A misfired incorrect to keep those two mirror religions in balance?

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[quote
You still haven't offered an explanation for the Sai Baba.

[/ QUOTE ]
What are you saying? That Sai Baba isn't divine? I've personally received holy ashes that he materialized for me from nowhere .

For txag...I don't know much about the churches view of Sai Baba; does the bible provide any explanation for the miracles he performs?

om sai om sai om sai

Re: Do you agree with the following statement?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe they were mistaken? If so, how do you explain the 500 people Jesus appeared to at one time? If this didn't happen, then the church founders were lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is typical. ONE person claims in a letter to someone in another country that he knows of an event where Jesus appeared to 500 people. No information is given about how to find them, and as far as I know, no other account of this event exists.

Yet this is repeatedly brought out as an example of "look, you can ask them yourself". How the hell is someone in Greece supposed to find these unknown people who live in some unknown town/city in some unknown country?