Learning NL 1/2
 

1/2 blinds 200 stacks all around

I have 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MP opens for 10. I call OTB and the flop is:
K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I have a gutshot. Villian bets $15 and I?

Who calls here? A gutshot needs about 10.5:1. So in order to call don't we need to makeup an *average* of $160 on the turn + river?

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

How loose is MP? I never call, sometimes raise to like 40 though.

EDIT: Calling here is absolutely positively terrible. You are not stacking him 100%,even if in position. Calling here is a gross overestimation of implied odds. I guess if you wanted to call for floating purposes though, thats ok.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

You're talking like a limit player with the odds. You could raise as a read dependent play if you think villian's cbet is weak. If that raise is called, I likely take a free card on the turn and pray to hit on the river. You could fold the flop because you're learning as you say and don't want to make a play there. You could also call the flop as a "float" and fire at the turn if checked to no matter if you hit or not. All the options are what make NL fun.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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Why what is your reasoning? On page 145 of Ed Millers book it says this is an easy call.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

I'd generally fold/rr this pre w/ 100bb stacks to a 5x open. Calling the flop is ok if you think you can take it away on the turn a portion of the time. Also, don't forget about our backdoor flush draw which is the nuts.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

call/raise/fold whatever you like

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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Why what is your reasoning? On page 145 of Ed Millers book it says this is an easy call.

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You are calling for a little bit of gutshot value, but a LOT of float/bluff value. its the combination that is valuable.

It is by no means an easy call, especially not 100% of the time. Sometimes call, sometimes raise, sometimes fold.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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Why what is your reasoning? On page 145 of Ed Millers book it says this is an easy call.

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I'd like some solid reasoning behind never calling here as well. I'd fold pretty easily but if I had to choose between raising or calling it wouldn't be so clear cut for me.

Also, I'd usually fold this preflop (although I used to always call here). You just don't hit this hard enough and have the implied odds against most people to call off 5% of your stack here.

Regarding NLTAP, I think it is generally much more geared towards high stakes games and the advice in the book contrasts pretty sharply vs standard SSNL advice especially preflop where Ed had you limping in even from late position with a variety of standard raising hands. That being said, there are a lot of gems in the book but I'm more interested in the Small Stakes NL Cash book coming out early next year.

rvg

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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I think a raise is terrible here - its not a good spot for a semibluff. You called from LP preflop which suggests small pair/sc, so it wouldn't take a genius villain to read a raise for what it is - a semibluff.

IMO, a call is not bad as it gives you a couple of ways to win on the turn - 1) you can hit. 2) If the turn is any [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] you can represent a flush.

You also have a backdoor spade draw, so overall I think a call is not bad.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

I think you can easily call this. One, his bet is pretty strong. Probably means he's got a king. If you hit a heart on the turn, play the flush because he doesn't look to have it and check calling represents chasing the flush. If you hit your 5, you will make more money.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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Why what is your reasoning? On page 145 of Ed Millers book it says this is an easy call.

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it's not a call unless villain is a guy who c-bets a lot and you have a decent chance of taking it on the turn. you definitely don't have odds to call on your gutshot + bdfd though.

i actually like calling at least as much as folding, but i'd probably raise. good chance you can take the pot right there. if he calls, you can either bet turn if you still think he's weak or check behind for a free chance at completing your hidden straight draw.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

Fold this without reads, you have no idea if he's capable of folding his K if you 'hit' the flush draw. You also have no idea if villain c-bets frequintly (making a float profitable), and you don't have odds to hit your gutshot (since again you know nothing about your villain).

So if you call your basically lost on the turn unless you hit your gutshot.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

all options are available, you aren't calling JUST to hit the gutshot tho, you are gonna have to be able to take it away later on when u miss

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

I assume the reason you called preflop is so that you can call this type of flop, am I right? If not, I think you should re-evaluate your preflop strategy.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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all options are available, you aren't calling JUST to hit the gutshot tho, you are gonna have to be able to take it away later on when u miss

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Against a unkown I find it hard to believe that a float/bluff is profitable if you miss. The gutshot is just icing on the cake really, but the cake isn't that great to begin with.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

FOLD PRE

FOLD FLOP

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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all options are available, you aren't calling JUST to hit the gutshot tho, you are gonna have to be able to take it away later on when u miss

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WHICH MEANS TERRIBLE 2+2ERS WILL BE LIKE LOLZ WATCH ME SHOVE THIS 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] TURN

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

If he's betting 15 into a 20 dollar pot, I'd say he realizes that there's a flush draw out. If a heart falls on the turn, I'd be willing to bet you could take the pot. However, it would be a lot safer play with reads on the villain.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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LOL, ROFL, etc.

The flop call in position is one of the most potent weapons in my arsenal.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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all options are available, you aren't calling JUST to hit the gutshot tho, you are gonna have to be able to take it away later on when u miss

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Against a unkown I find it hard to believe that a float/bluff is profitable if you miss. The gutshot is just icing on the cake really, but the cake isn't that great to begin with.

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i would fold preflop if i wasnt planning to float. if you dont want to float, calling preflop is bad news

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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LOL, ROFL, etc.

The flop call in position is one of the most potent weapons in my arsenal.

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I agree, especially when we have 2 very hidden draws.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

if villian makes a raise preflop and will often c-bet the Flop i just smove call and try to take the pot away from him if he shows any kind of weakness at the turn

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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all options are available, you aren't calling JUST to hit the gutshot tho, you are gonna have to be able to take it away later on when u miss

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Against a unkown I find it hard to believe that a float/bluff is profitable if you miss. The gutshot is just icing on the cake really, but the cake isn't that great to begin with.

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i would fold preflop if i wasnt planning to float. if you dont want to float, calling preflop is bad news

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bah, you nailed my next point. I am folding this preflop against a unkown...

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

If villan has a high CB% I'll usually raise bc chances are he has air. If called I usually check behind on the turn and give up though sometimes I will fire again.

Re: Learning NL 1/2
 

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you can raise and you can fold but you sure as hell can't call

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LOL, ROFL, etc.

The flop call in position is one of the most potent weapons in my arsenal.

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you are right. you can call and bluff on the turn or whatever, or you could just fold and wait for the fishies to dump to you on another hand. i don't think there is much merit in discussing bluffing in this hand with no information on the villian, and with no information on the hero for that matter.

now that i think about it more i hate a raise, i only like a fold.