Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Wondering what you guys think of this. I know alot of people who are 2k regulars hate people who do this (buying in for 400 and cashing out when you double up, then buying in short again) but it is very profitable. It is so easy to wait for a good hand like AQ+ 99+ or even 77 in some spots and move in on a lag player or move in when someone raises and gets a few loose callers.

Is this ethical? I know its poker and you should do whatever you want within the rules of the game, but I feel bad screwing up the game for the guys who are trying to play normal 100bb+ poker. Id like to hear some opinions.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Never played anything near that limit so can't comment on that level.

I depsize when players come to the 100NL table with $20. Then preflop fold, fold, fold, ....... ALL-IN. Fold ..... ALL-IN.
You've raised up your AK, got one caller, then some short stacked jackass in the blinds always wants to make it a race of it with his 55. I guess they prefer poker over bingo.

But I put the blame solely on the poker site. The buy in limits should be 50-100BB. Mabey minimum 40x bb.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Ask the guys in the high stakes NL forum. I don't think they'd mind. There's nothing unethical about it. But you won't be able to make money in the long run doing this.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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Ask the guys in the high stakes NL forum. I don't think they'd mind. There's nothing unethical about it. But you won't be able to make money in the long run doing this.

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You would be amazed at some of the stuff they paid me off with. One CR on the turn got called by A6 for no pair and no draw. My trips won. Other times, they pay off with KQ allin preflop against my KK . Im not a 100nl shortstack player like the one described above. Moving in with 55 wasnt what I was doing, although, I did with 77 once when there was going to be my stack size in dead money. I think it is profitable long term as long as you have good game selection and a good understanding of preflop theory. Sklansky could kill those games.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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Ask the guys in the high stakes NL forum. I don't think they'd mind. There's nothing unethical about it. But you won't be able to make money in the long run doing this.

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Read GSIH, and search for the previous threads on "short stacked NL". There is not much question that this is profitable in most games when executed correctly.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

GHIS, what does this stand for

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Interesting. But now that I think about it you're probably right. If the game features routine raises to half your stack many players will be happy to call off $400 to see a flop vs. with a bad hand to get a crack at someone else with a deeper stack.

Anyway thanks for the correction. I'll be interested to see the results.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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GHIS, what does this stand for

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Getting Holdem in Started

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Getting Started in Hold 'Em - Ed Miller. Although a begginners book, the Short Stack NL strategy section is interesting even for an experienced player.

I have to say I played around with this system a tiny bit, and I found it easier in theory than it was to actually execute in real life. I don't have very much NL experience though.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Gonna keep trying it for a bit, but cant for another few days as midterms are begining.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

To answer your original question: Whatever, it's poker. As long as it's allowed in the rules, then it's ethical. If people don't like it then that's their problem, and they need to petition Party with strong arguments to get the rules changed.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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Never played anything near that limit so can't comment on that level.

I depsize when players come to the 100NL table with $20. Then preflop fold, fold, fold, ....... ALL-IN. Fold ..... ALL-IN.
You've raised up your AK, got one caller, then some short stacked jackass in the blinds always wants to make it a race of it with his 55. I guess they prefer poker over bingo.

But I put the blame solely on the poker site. The buy in limits should be 50-100BB. Mabey minimum 40x bb.

[/ QUOTE ]3

This especially sucks when you have him dominated like when you're holding a bigger pocket pair, ya know? I hate when people push with garbage, let me just keep winning the blinds!!

(sarcasm)

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

It's ethical. I have read the shortstacked strategy in GSIH and basically Miller argues that someone could NL cash games are inherently "flawed" because there is no real way for a good player to overcome someone using such a strategy.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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Never played anything near that limit so can't comment on that level.

I depsize when players come to the 100NL table with $20. Then preflop fold, fold, fold, ....... ALL-IN. Fold ..... ALL-IN.
You've raised up your AK, got one caller, then some short stacked jackass in the blinds always wants to make it a race of it with his 55. I guess they prefer poker over bingo.

But I put the blame solely on the poker site. The buy in limits should be 50-100BB. Mabey minimum 40x bb.

[/ QUOTE ]3

This especially sucks when you have him dominated like when you're holding a bigger pocket pair, ya know? I hate when people push with garbage, let me just keep winning the blinds!!

(sarcasm)

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

completely misread what I was saying.

Of course I would like the situation you suggested. Who wouldn't?

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

I don't consider choosing how much you buyin to be unethical at all, and I don't consider quitting after doubling up and then buying back in again short to be unethical either. I just consider it to be silly. About 75% of my profit from the 2k games just comes from flopping a set and then stacking some donk who calls me with an overpair. Short stack players are completely missing out on all that profit just because they can get AQ and 99 to call their allin raises every once in a while.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

55 is a favorite HU all in preflop vs. AK. that is all. And no, I think short stacks are weak and unskilled.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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55 is a favorite HU all in preflop vs. AK. that is all. And no, I think short stacks are weak and unskilled.

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This can be a costly assumption.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

you must hate jews and blacks too no? jk

But I think there is alot of money to be made at the 2k tables doing this.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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55 is a favorite HU all in preflop vs. AK. that is all. And no, I think short stacks are weak and unskilled.

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This can be a costly assumption.

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I'm not advocating pushing small pp's pf. Just making a statement of fact

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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But I think there is alot of money to be made at the 2k tables doing this.

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even more to be made playing with a full stack IMO

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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55 is a favorite HU all in preflop vs. AK. that is all. And no, I think short stacks are weak and unskilled.

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This can be a costly assumption.

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I'm not advocating pushing small pp's pf. Just making a statement of fact

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Sorry, my post was unclear. I mean to say that assuming short stack players are unskilled turds can end up being costly.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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GHIS, what does this stand for

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Getting Holdem in Started

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nh

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

I don't think it is unethical, but it is annoying. When I sit down in a ring game I want to play real poker, not two card poker. I wouldn't mind if buy-in limits were set with a higher % as minimum.

But then again, I don't play 2000NL.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

I don't see it as unethical, I do think they should change the software so that when you rejoin a table you left within the last 30 mins, you rejoin with the same stack you left it with, this should be standard practice for online sites.

Mack

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

I dont exactly understand why you (pocket11s) would be upset with the situation you described. You raise with AK and get a caller. Donk with 55 shoves. The fact that the money from the blinds + your raise + the caller between you and the donk means that, although your chance to win the pot is 50/50, the odds you are getting when you reshove are great. If you dont like getting your money in the center in +EV situations, then i dont think poker is the game for you...

-RubbleRobble

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I don't see it as unethical, I do think they should change the software so that when you rejoin a table you left within the last 30 mins, you rejoin with the same stack you left it with, this should be standard practice for online sites.

Mack

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It is standard practice on most sites, but what people do is site down at a limit table and buy in for they bank-20bbs, then the system lets them sit because they have buying in with all the money in their account.


Example, you have $500 in your account, you sit down at a $100NL table with $20. Double up to $40, leave the tables, sit a limit table and buyin for $520, then sit back at the NL table with your remaining $20.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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When I sit down in a ring game I want to play real poker, not two card poker.

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This is why I think limit is a superior game. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I dont exactly understand why you (pocket11s) would be upset with the situation you described. You raise with AK and get a caller. Donk with 55 shoves. The fact that the money from the blinds + your raise + the caller between you and the donk means that, although your chance to win the pot is 50/50, the odds you are getting when you reshove are great. If you dont like getting your money in the center in +EV situations, then i dont think poker is the game for you...

-RubbleRobble

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I used a bad example and did a terrible job of explaining the situation. I probably should of picked a hand like, theres 2 limpers and you call with JTs on the button.

I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

Everyone at the table are making comments like "F-ing short stacks, they need to up the min buy-in" because this person with no significant amount of money to win is ruining the flow of the game.

Mabey you're happy tightening up and "Waiting to spring the trap" on the guy with 20bb. I find it anoying. Difference of opinion, no big deal.

I don't mind doing this for the maniac who is fully stacked though, that's my favorite situation to be in.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

Everyone at the table are making comments like "F-ing short stacks, they need to up the min buy-in" because this person with no significant amount of money to win is ruining the flow of the game.

Geeze, I hate when my opponents go on tilt.

Mabey you're happy tightening up and "Waiting to spring the trap" on the guy with 20bb. I find it anoying. Difference of opinion, no big deal.

Yeah, right, last time I checked 20BB isn't even real money, I mean, small edges? PFFFF

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

Everyone at the table are making comments like "F-ing short stacks, they need to up the min buy-in" because this person with no significant amount of money to win is ruining the flow of the game.

Geeze, I hate when my opponents go on tilt.

Mabey you're happy tightening up and "Waiting to spring the trap" on the guy with 20bb. I find it anoying. Difference of opinion, no big deal.

Yeah, right, last time I checked 20BB isn't even real money, I mean, small edges? PFFFF

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Ive read a few posts from you and they all seem to have a common theme, sacarstic, and pointless. Keep up the good work *ThumpsUp*

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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When I sit down in a ring game I want to play real poker, not two card poker.

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That's why God gave us limit.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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55 is a favorite HU all in preflop vs. AK. that is all. And no, I think short stacks are weak and unskilled.

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This can be a costly assumption.

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I'm not advocating pushing small pp's pf. Just making a statement of fact

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Sorry, my post was unclear. I mean to say that assuming short stack players are unskilled turds can end up being costly.

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them also assuming that I don't know what they doing or what their strategy is can be costly (to them)

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

I'm guessing that since the shortstack pushes with such a narrow range it's like he's playing with his cards face-up, and thus the other players can easily make correct FTOP decisions.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

Even if my hand is painfully obvious, they still paid me off with inferior holdings. And these are the higher stakes players on party.

Also, situations commonly exist where they can make the correct decision yet we both get allin with +EV due to the fact that there is alot of dead money in there from the callers.

I think this strategy isnt given enough consideration on this forum, and there is serious cash to be made by correctly implementing it, especially given how agressive the 2k game has become in the last few months and the fact that there are many 30/15 if not 40/20 players out there who get killed by this style.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

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How so?

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How can you make a mistake when you know exactly how your opponent plays his hands?

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

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How so?

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How can you make a mistake when you know exactly how your opponent plays his hands?

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Because knowing the hand range hes pushing with you know the your odds of winning is somwhere in the range of 5% - 93%, therefor theres no way you can make a mistake?

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pusing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

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How can you make a mistake when you know exactly how your opponent plays his hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because knowing the hand range hes pushing with you know the your odds of winning is somwhere in the range of 5% - 93%, therefor theres no way you can make a mistake?

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You're a retard.

Maybe you will change your post, but I thought it would be worth quoting it for the world to see.

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

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I have been at a table where you have 5 players fully stacked, there to play poker at that limit. Someone buys in for the minimum and starts pushing with any pair, AK-AJ.

According to the FTOP, isn't this a good thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you make a mistake when you know exactly how your opponent plays his hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because knowing the hand range hes pushing with you know the your odds of winning is somewhere in the range of 5% - 93%, therefor theres no way you can make a mistake?

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You're a retard.

Maybe you will change your post, but I thought it would be worth quoting it for the world to see.

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Soko,

See that question mark on the end? Its looking for an explanation. You see soko, regular people use a question mark to make a sentence into a question.

You then reply by calling me a retard. Thats a very good explanation.

A little hint. To you all this sarcasm, accusations that posters are stupid, and name calling, shows how cool/smart you are.



But to anyone with average intelligence, they see what is blatantly obvious. Your incredibly insecure.

I feel sorry for you. Its sad to see someone have such a low esteem they have a need to put others down to feel better about themself.

Example:

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Never played anything near that limit so can't comment on that level.

I depsize when players come to the 100NL table with $20. Then preflop fold, fold, fold, ....... ALL-IN. Fold ..... ALL-IN.
You've raised up your AK, got one caller, then some short stacked jackass in the blinds always wants to make it a race of it with his 55. I guess they prefer poker over bingo.

But I put the blame solely on the poker site. The buy in limits should be 50-100BB. Mabey minimum 40x bb.

[/ QUOTE ]3

This especially sucks when you have him dominated like when you're holding a bigger pocket pair, ya know? I hate when people push with garbage, let me just keep winning the blinds!!

(sarcasm)

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of a response is that?

A normal response would be:

"This shouldn't bug you, there are some good +EV opportunities you can cash in on such as......"

Instead, you put me down, act childish, and believe it actually makes you look good for doing it.


I have no hard feelings towards you, But for now I'm just going to put you on ignore.

Good luck to you

Re: Ethics of Shortstacking the 2k
 

For the record I only put you down so I can laugh at myself. I don't expect respect from any of you.