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Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
I am not a very frequent poster in these forums, I mostly lurk in the MHSH. I introduce myself as an online poker professional since 2 years ago. My main game is short handed middle limit hold'em. I now strongly suspect that my biggest fish pond has been infected with poker bots, and I need to do something about it!
I have found a bunch of players with close to equivalent stats in party's 10/20, 15/30, 20/40 and 30/60 6-max games (They might exist in other games as well but these are the only games I am interested in). I believe these players are non-human bot players. It is hard for me to find concrete evidence since the tools for me, as a regular user, are very limited. I have datamined, played with, observed and tried to chat with these suspicious players. Nothing so far has told me I am wrong. What caught my attention in the first place was that these players always delay a few seconds before they act pre- and post-flop, except when they have an easy fold decision pre-flop. An obvious example which come up rather frequently: Pre-flop. Player A raises, Bot 3-bets and Player B caps. Player A calls, Bot thinks for a few seconds before it calls the cap. This is an obvious call for pretty much all poker players, but these "bots" _always_ thinks for a few seconds in these spots. Strange me thinks.. I have tried to chat with many of these players, they have never replied. I have played HU with two of these players. On these occasions I played one hand, sat out, sat in, played one hand and so on for maybe 20 minutes. The "bot" was always ready to play instantly. I have noticed that these players have a habit of 3-betting with less than stellar hands pre-flop (T7o, 85o etc) in the big blind versus steal raises. But once I cap they always seem to play very straight forward post-flop. One time I exploited this strategy for approximately three hours straight against one particular "bot", but it never adapted. An otherwise good player would? These are some of the possible bots that I have found in my datamining (I use a custom background picture): http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1083/botsquadig5.jpg Starting from the upper right corner, the numbers represents: VPIP, PFR, Avg aggression factor, number of hands played WTSD, Won$@SD, Att. to steal blinds Flop, Turn and River aggression factors. Win rate in BB/100 Flop, Turn and River folded to bet On the other side of the player box the upper number is folded SB to steal and the lower one is folded BB to steal. As you can see their stats are all very similar. Since the sample sizes are pretty small the stats will probably converge better after more played hands. On the other hand I assume that bots can be tweaked in any way their users want, and therefore their stats may never fully converge. I have stopped playing at PartyPoker since a month ago. I now only datamine the games. I log on to my Party account about twice a week, and each time I see new players with these stats and slow pace playing style. I have also noticed that some "bots" play no more. Let us say these players are not bots, where do their playing style come from? I find it strange that suddenly a significant portion of the (assumed) winning players at PartyPoker play a style that, as far as I know, is not widely advocated anywhere. I have contacted PartyPoker about these observations of mine: "Dear Henrik, We thank you for contacting us. With reference to your email, please note that an investigation has been initiated into these accounts and we assure you that appropriate action will be taken if the accounts are involved in any suspicious activities. We appreciate your efforts in helping us maintain the integrity of our site. Contact us anytime, we are available around the clock to assist you with your account related questions and suggestions. Sincerely, Logan Nichols Investigations Team [email protected] " I don't know how urgent matter this is for PartyPoker in these days though, and bots do a good job starting up new tables and keeping them running around the clock. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
If what you say about timing is correct then I agree this looks kinda fishy. Keep us informed of partys response.
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
ahh, the 5.0sec-bots 30/20/1.5 with defend bb 80%. probably poki. i love playing them. pretty easy to beat HU. usually you can take $200-500 from them before their owner turns them off. =)
they have been running a looong time. have been posted here a few times before but usually some mod removes the thread because this could scare people away from poker. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1 |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
That thread was started by the same guy.
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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That thread was started by the same guy. [/ QUOTE ] Classic! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
This thread should be taken seriously. I discovered thirty-seven bots on Ultimate Bet about a month ago that played identical. It took several emails to support and a mountain of evidence before they were removed. It was a different bot than these assuming these are.
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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This thread should be taken seriously. [/ QUOTE ] Yes it should. Sorry. [ QUOTE ] I discovered thirty-seven bots on Ultimate Bet about a month ago [/ QUOTE ] Good man. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
Wouldn't the bots be losers anyway?
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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Wouldn't the bots be losers anyway? [/ QUOTE ]Yes. Bots can't get girlfriends. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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Wouldn't the bots be losers anyway? [/ QUOTE ] He posted their winrates. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
ive played quite alot against these and im 100% they are bots, but i dont think party cares about them, without those bots they woulndt have any games at all (well almost)
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
Sounds a lot like the SNG bots that were found on Party a few months back. I guess all you can do is email Party and they will delete them. If they really are bots and they are playing this high, I guess the people who thought bots can only win in micro stakes are wrong.
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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I guess the people who thought bots can only win in micro stakes are wrong. [/ QUOTE ] Of course... there is a very successful Bot network working WSEX right now, that was specifically designed to defeat 2+2ers. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
I'm happy to see that my post seems to be taken seriously. Thank you!
I have not recieved anymore replies from PartyPoker than the one I posted, it was 5 days ago. I gave them a list of possible bots, but it seems as if they have not done anything about them yet, because I saw at least three of those bots online yesterday. Actually I don't expect PartyPoker to give me many more replies as I think they might want to deal with this without too much publicity. This is a screenshot from just minutes ago of 3 possible bots playing 15/30, as you can see they multitable. I have noticed that they play 1-3 tables: Screenshot |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
I have played against several of those (before the ban) and remember thinking that they were playing very cookie-cutter. The term "bot" did pass through my mind. I assigned it about 20% probability, but maybe less because Party has those bot-checks that everybody complains about. You have to distinguish bot from multitabling TAG with the timing. They weren't great but they definitely were better than fish.
Midlimits would be ideal for bots of this quality because there are still enough fish around to beat. If they are bots, your timing tell will go away shortly. I don't see what can be done long-term if they are bots, though, so I just try to beat them and count on the sites to make sure that they don't collude. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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[ QUOTE ] I guess the people who thought bots can only win in micro stakes are wrong. [/ QUOTE ] Of course... there is a very successful Bot network working WSEX right now, that was specifically designed to defeat 2+2ers. [/ QUOTE ] Is that a joke or are you serious? |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I guess the people who thought bots can only win in micro stakes are wrong. [/ QUOTE ] Of course... there is a very successful Bot network working WSEX right now, that was specifically designed to defeat 2+2ers. [/ QUOTE ] Is that a joke or are you serious? [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I was able to confirm this by speaking to some coders at the PBA (Poker Bots Association). They performed an extensive analysis of hands posted in the 2+2 strategy forums, in order to tweak the AI for the Bots. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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Yes, I was able to confirm this by speaking to some coders at the PBA (Poker Bots Association). They performed an extensive analysis of hands posted in the 2+2 strategy forums, in order to tweak the AI for the Bots. [/ QUOTE ] Honestly, that would explain some of the goofy play there. IMO, a 2+2 style ABC approach will get you slaughtered at WPEX. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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[ QUOTE ] Yes, I was able to confirm this by speaking to some coders at the PBA (Poker Bots Association). They performed an extensive analysis of hands posted in the 2+2 strategy forums, in order to tweak the AI for the Bots. [/ QUOTE ] Honestly, that would explain some of the goofy play there. IMO, a 2+2 style ABC approach will get you slaughtered at WPEX. [/ QUOTE ] I think sniper is joking. I don't think it would take much to program a fairly good bot, but to program them to beat 2+2er's is a bit rediculous (as this would mean wildly bluffing or extremely tight play...or simply expert play that could win many high stakes tables). I noticed the cashier is now a https page, btw. Have not had to deposit since the ban [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] That's cool with me, only had $10 in there and I just built that up, and down. I don't even know if it is appropriate to go into my less than $100 whoas on a poker forum. Dealing with bots...the thing that gets me are those funny letters. OCR programs are created SPECIFICALLY to decifer these letters. I worked in the OCR industry for some time (as an accountant). Why no use a logic test? This would be much harder for a bot to ever pass by itself and would always require the programmers attention. Example: "Car 1 is red, car 2 is blue. What color is car 1?" I think that is more diffucult to program (reading and interpreting sentences) but would not take any longer for the normal user than trying to decifer characters. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
i am certain there are bots in low limit limit games on ftp too. i know bc my friend is selling it.
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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I think sniper is joking. [/ QUOTE ] I asked him if he was and he said he wasn't. I checked my multiple level sarcasm at BBV. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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i am certain there are bots in low limit limit games on ftp too. i know bc my friend is selling it. [/ QUOTE ] So, you'll be reporting this to FT right? |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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i am certain there are bots in low limit limit games on ftp too. i know bc my friend is selling it. [/ QUOTE ] PM me your friend's info. k thx |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
Hmmm I am curious if what you say about FT is true. I have encountered the wackiest play in the lower limit games there. I have never seen the retarded weird aggression and strange bluffs i have there. I've been trying to determine if I just wasn't used to the games there or something weird is happening.
I am up since playing there, but the play is awful weird sometimes. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
I've come across these and I had already begun to get suspicious. I seem to be playing better against them since I started capping preflop.
Any other tactics to beat this specific type of player? |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
[quote
This would be much harder for a bot to ever pass by itself and would always require the programmers attention. Example: "Car 1 is red, car 2 is blue. What color is car 1?" I think that is more diffucult to program (reading and interpreting sentences) but would not take any longer for the normal user than trying to decifer characters. [/ QUOTE ] Thats a great idea, I'm tired of playing against foreigners on party. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
Saying that, you must be pretty confident you could pass a similar question...
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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Saying that, you must be pretty confident you could pass a similar question... [/ QUOTE ] I don't get it. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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Thats a great idea, I'm tired of playing against foreigners on party. [/ QUOTE ] I think it would be fairly simple to have a handful of these sorts of questions for each native language. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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[ QUOTE ] Thats a great idea, I'm tired of playing against foreigners on party. [/ QUOTE ] I think it would be fairly simple to have a handful of these sorts of questions for each native language. [/ QUOTE ] I think that would defeat the purpose entirely. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
You see!
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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You see! [/ QUOTE ] Using big words to confuse me isn't cool. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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[quote This would be much harder for a bot to ever pass by itself and would always require the programmers attention. Example: "Car 1 is red, car 2 is blue. What color is car 1?" I think that is more diffucult to program (reading and interpreting sentences) but would not take any longer for the normal user than trying to decifer characters. [/ QUOTE ] Thats a great idea, I'm tired of playing against foreigners on party. [/ QUOTE ] The easiest thing to do is show a picture of something and give options as to what it is. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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The easiest thing to do is show a picture of something and give options as to what it is. [/ QUOTE ] I think it would be easier to have an easily defeated measure to make people feel safe. |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
I would not say I was using big words.
/Uncool |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
Spend more time on beating them! Anyone know of any exposable flaws?
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
Flint, I'm not 100% about this because I've only seen it a few times but they seem to bet A high on raggy boards when checked to.
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Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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Flint, I'm not 100% about this because I've only seen it a few times but they seem to bet A high on raggy boards when checked to. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
"What caught my attention in the first place was that these players always delay a few seconds before they act pre- and post-flop, except when they have an easy fold decision pre-flop. An obvious example which come up rather frequently: Pre-flop. Player A raises, Bot 3-bets and Player B caps. Player A calls, Bot thinks for a few seconds before it calls the cap. This is an obvious call for pretty much all poker players, but these "bots" _always_ thinks for a few seconds in these spots. Strange me thinks."
A good programmer would never have a timing tell in his play. This would be his first concern to avoid detection. I read bot threads on here 5 or 6 years ago and the consensus (led by the omniscient David Sklansky) was that it was highly unlikely a successfull bot could be written for anything but Heads up play(and possibly Omaha hi low at the lower limits). What has occurred since then to change opinions on this? Has Sklansky changed his stance on this issue? |
Re: Bots in PartyPoker\'s 6-max Limit games?
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[ QUOTE ] Flint, I'm not 100% about this because I've only seen it a few times but they seem to bet A high on raggy boards when checked to. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Am I missing something here? |
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