Victor vs Tolbiny
 

Vic and I haven't [layed against each other in a long time, probably 6+ months, but we know each other pretty well.

15/30 6 handed, Victor raises UTG, i three bet UTG +1 (me good seat selection), all fold vic calls.

Flop A, 6, 6 rainbow.

Chck, i bet, Vic c/r, i three bet, he caps.

Turn 5

He bets, i raise, he calls.

River Q

He bets i fold.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

i think his river bet is bad, and im guessing you had AK (maybe AJ)?

but it depends on what "we know each other pretty well" means.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

u dont even know what i have miles.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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but it depends on what "we know each other pretty well" means.

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He plays poker 8ft to the left of where i play poker. We know exactly how well/badly the other is running from the cursesscreams and broken computer accessories. We also discuss hands a lot.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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u dont even know what i have miles.

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you have AQ and you're winning or you have AK and you're splitting. if you have AJ your bet is a bluff and i would not expect someone to fold a better hand for one bet on the river. if you have AK your bet is to win an extra half of the pot, but again i wouldnt expect anyone to fold AK there.

so with AQ you should checkraise. with AK you should check call. with AJ you should just check fold.

???

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but it depends on what "we know each other pretty well" means.

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He plays poker 8ft to the left of where i play poker. We know exactly how well/badly the other is running from the cursesscreams and broken computer accessories. We also discuss hands a lot.

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yeah and some of this info would be helpful. do you guys ever just try to own each other in hands like this or does this flop and turn action really mean what it should mean on this board?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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i think his river bet is bad, and im guessing you had AK (maybe AJ)?

but it depends on what "we know each other pretty well" means.

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folding AK/AJ here is giving Victor a lot of credit.


What did you have?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

"so with AQ you should checkraise"

ya bc tolbiny is clueless and cant read hands or boards.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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so with AQ you should checkraise. with AK you should check call. with AJ you should just check fold.

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If that's what he should do with all those hands, then tolbiny should check AK, right?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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so with AQ you should checkraise. with AK you should check call. with AJ you should just check fold.

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If that's what he should do with all those hands, then tolbiny should check AK, right?

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if tolbiny should check AK, he should bet AK, right?

i don't like these arguments.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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so with AQ you should checkraise. with AK you should check call. with AJ you should just check fold.

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If that's what he should do with all those hands, then tolbiny should check AK, right?

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if tolbiny should check AK, he should bet AK, right?

i don't like these arguments.

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Why not, these arguments are what this hand is about. Should i fold Ak to an "obvious" AQ? What should Vic be capping this flop with? Should he call the turn raise with AT, AJ, AQ? And the river bet UI? When he spikes his 2 pair should e bet out or c/r? Should he bluff donk with AJ sometimes to prevent me from folding AK on the river?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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so with AQ you should checkraise. with AK you should check call. with AJ you should just check fold.

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If that's what he should do with all those hands, then tolbiny should check AK, right?

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if tolbiny should check AK, he should bet AK, right?

i don't like these arguments.

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I don't get your point. You're saying what Victor should do with AK-AJ and defined that vs. a decent player there's no value that tolbiny can extract. The only way AK can valuebet is if victor is folding AK on the river here, right?

Rob

\"should\" threads
 

yes, and these come up every now and then, and the number of times the word "should" comes up is amazing. by the time this thread is over, how many times will "should" be typed?

Re: \"should\" threads
 

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yes, and these come up every now and then, and the number of times the word "should" comes up is amazing. by the time this thread is over, how many times will "should" be typed?

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LOL. I'm done arguing with you, it's pointless. I'm just saying that there's a perfectly legit reason for betting, as you never face a 3bet from a better hand and still extract 1BB when you're ahead (saying tolbiny won't pay off a river checkraise goes beyond the should category here).

Rob

Re: \"should\" threads
 

well we all know where this is headed right?

if victor would actually c/f AJ then yes tolbiny should cbh AK. if tolbiny would actually cbh AK then yes victor should c/f AK on the river. so should victor donk AQ to prevent the cbh? if tolbiny so surely has AK then why did victor even call the turn raise with AQ? if he should fold AQ to a turn raise, then why did tolbiny even raise with AK on this turn? etc. etc. etc.

the simple fact is that any good player plays with a certain amount of unpredictability, and that alone makes splitting hairs about hands like this fruitless.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

You should call the river with AK imo. This fold is too fancy and dangerous especially against an "emotional" player like Vic.

I also don't like the flop 3bet. What's the point? You get less out of weaker Aces (at least theoretically) and give trips or quads or a boat the chance to ream you. This would be a good board to call his flop c/r then wait to raise until the river where you could fold to a 3bet.

That said I also don't like his flop cap for similar reasons if he has an Ace... if he has trips or better than I like it especially considering how much action he got out of you.

Conclusion: you both played this too aggro and too fast and Tolbiny made a bad fold on the end.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

"against an "emotional" player like Vic."

hahahahaha, how much have you played with me?

also, you dont know what tolbiny had.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

If Victor had AQ, I think he put too much action on the flop. I think he's going to be looking at AK or AA more often than <=AJ once the 3-bet comes. (He may also face an occasional re-bluff, but that also argues for just calling the 3-bet).

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

I didin't claim to know.. my post assumes he has AK for sake of argument.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

"hat said I also don't like his flop cap for similar reasons if he has an Ace"

i had aq. my flop cap is fine i think. toblinys pf range is at+ and lots of pairs. im slightly ahead of he ace range and why cant he be 3betting a pp here bc he doesnt believe my cr?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

You have to think more strategically than that.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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"against an "emotional" player like Vic."

hahahahaha, how much have you played with me?



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Also this was a joke... but it IS evident from the hand that you played whatever you had too fast (at least imo) so I think it's foolish not to admit the possibility that you might rarely continue to overplay and put out a river bet with AJ-A8 or something of the sort.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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"hat said I also don't like his flop cap for similar reasons if he has an Ace"

i had aq. my flop cap is fine i think. toblinys pf range is at+ and lots of pairs. im slightly ahead of he ace range and why cant he be 3betting a pp here bc he doesnt believe my cr?

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AT generally should not be 3-betting your check-raise in a UTG vs UTG+1 battle. With AJ a 3-bet is close, and depends in part on whether you tend to call or cap with AK/AQ before the flop.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

Calling his river bet with less than AQ is pissing money away in my opinion. I don't think you should raise with less than 55.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

Some reasons i postedd this hand.
I think vic overplayed his hand on the flop, especially if he intends to call down if i raise the turn. He's puttin in 5 BBs postflop into a 4BB pot preflop drawing thin with 0-4.5 outs, when behind. i have to be bluffing/chopping with AQ/overplaying AJ a LOT to make up for this.
Do i call the river bet with AK? Against a player i play alot against i just call and move on, but we don't play together much at all, does this alter anything as i don't have to worry (as much) about being exploited in future hands?
3. I had JJ and thought i could get AT, AJ to fold, and had a shot at AQ. It was a fun hand none the less..

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

Hey I'm all for it.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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It wasn't a bluff. It was an abortion.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

I thought you played a laggy style tolbiny. With that in mind I like victors play.
edit: hmm probably mistaking tolbiny for togni...

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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It wasn't a bluff. It was an abortion.

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I wish i had aborted it in the first trimester, would have saved me some dough.
On a side note that you might be interested in the last issue of SI had a good hot stove section whish was extremely well written for being essentially bullitpoints (the author uses non standard metrics to). Hopefully whoever it is that wrote it gets some more opportunities to turn SI back into a readable magazine.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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Just curious, how many times have you folded an ace on an A77 board after the UTG raiser caps the flop? Have you ever done that?

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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I had JJ and thought i could get AT, AJ to fold, and had a shot at AQ. It was a fun hand none the less..

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lol.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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I had JJ and thought i could get AT, AJ to fold, and had a shot at AQ. It was a fun hand none the less..

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gl

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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I had JJ and thought i could get AT, AJ to fold, and had a shot at AQ. It was a fun hand none the less..

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lol.

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Complete spew.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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Just curious, how many times have you folded an ace on an A77 board after the UTG raiser caps the flop? Have you ever done that?

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Yes.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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Just curious, how many times have you folded an ace on an A77 board after the UTG raiser caps the flop? Have you ever done that?

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Yes.

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If you start folding JJ on A77 flops instead of an Ace I predict good things in your future.

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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Just curious, how many times have you folded an ace on an A77 board after the UTG raiser caps the flop? Have you ever done that?

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Yes.

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If you start folding JJ on A77 flops instead of an Ace I predict good things in your future.

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not having the 4bb pure bluff in your arsenal is asking for trouble against good players (lol)

Re: Victor vs Tolbiny
 

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JJ? Wow.. who needs lags when the tags play like this?

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It was a bluff, tags aren't allowed to bluff?

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Just curious, how many times have you folded an ace on an A77 board after the UTG raiser caps the flop? Have you ever done that?

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Yes.

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If you start folding JJ on A77 flops instead of an Ace I predict good things in your future.

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LOL