outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

i get JJ today in the 1-2 at commerce. i raise mp, button who is loose passive 3 bets, short asian guy who is tight with raises and who folded 99 to a 3 bet in the sb earlier starts talking all cocky like to the button and saying stuff like whatre you gonna do if i 4 bet. he's relishing the moment i gather. then he 4 bets. i fold, getting 5 to 1 plus implied odds should i flop a set, but not caring because im certain im against AA or maybe KK and dont want to be bothered with such technicalities.

how bad is that?

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

you got me smiling. Tommy once asked "Do you control the cards or do they control you?"


May not be the best play but that isn't always the point.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

i had a hand against deathdonkey a couple weeks ago at the bellagio where i opend pocket sevens in MP, he 3-bet next in, folded to me and i mucked

he showed 79s, but knowing how good he runs, i think it was an expert laydown

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i had a hand against deathdonkey a couple weeks ago at the bellagio where i opend pocket sevens in MP, he 3-bet next in, folded to me and i mucked

he showed 79s, but knowing how good he runs, i think it was an expert laydown

[/ QUOTE ]

expert indeed.

-Brad

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"i fold"

even money

"not caring"

priceless

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

4 bets is the cap in LA, no?

[ QUOTE ]
i fold, getting 5 to 1 plus implied odds should i flop a set, but not caring because im certain im against AA or maybe KK...How bad is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, that's a pretty bad fold.

You have got one of them pegged on an overpair. So, your JJ is an extremely easy hand to play. You either flop a set and collect a big pot or you miss and fold.

JJ would be tougher to play where you can't put a guy so squarely on an overpair as then (a) you may not know that you should fold on a ten high flop or (b) you may not get much action when you flop a set.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

I need to get back into that 1/2 game... you are all such nits...

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i get JJ today in the 1-2 at commerce. i raise mp, button who is loose passive 3 bets, short asian guy who is tight with raises and who folded 99 to a 3 bet in the sb earlier starts talking all cocky like to the button and saying stuff like whatre you gonna do if i 4 bet. he's relishing the moment i gather. then he 4 bets. i fold, getting 5 to 1 plus implied odds should i flop a set, but not caring because im certain im against AA or maybe KK and dont want to be bothered with such technicalities.


how bad is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's bad, but this is badder:

"i get JJ today in the 1-2 at commerce. i raise mp, button who is loose passive 3 bets, short asian guy who is tight with raises and who folded 99 to a 3 bet in the sb earlier starts talking all cocky like to the button and saying stuff like whatre you gonna do if i 4 bet. he's relishing the moment i gather. then he 4 bets....im certain im against AA or maybe KK "

i call and fold for 1 bet on a 8 high flop, and see a third J slide off on the turn and not care.

this is the dope ass baddest:

i haven't played a hand in 3 hours and pretty stuck, "i get JJ. i raise mp, button who is loose passive 3 bets, short asian guy who is tight with raises and who folded 99 to a 3 bet in the sb earlier starts talking all cocky like to the button and saying stuff like whatre you gonna do if i 4 bet. he's relishing the moment i gather. then he 4 bets...im certain im against AA or maybe KK "

i call and fold for 1 bet on a 8 high flop, only to see two AK's chop on the river unimproved and not care.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i had a hand against deathdonkey a couple weeks ago at the bellagio where i opend pocket sevens in MP, he 3-bet next in, folded to me and i mucked

he showed 79s, but knowing how good he runs, i think it was an expert laydown

[/ QUOTE ]

expert indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

the middle one would not bother me. it'd make me laugh a little. the last one would bother me, but i read hands pretty well so it's not too likely.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

good read. it's at least 50-50 to come 997.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

Mike, one of the worst hands posted here in a while. Pretty tough to make such a huge mistake in LHE.

James

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

<font color="blue">how bad is that? </font>

You'll wind up a lifetime winner despite this fold, but it's pretty bad nevertheless.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

what's worse my hand or newhizzles?

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"You either flop a set and collect a big pot or you miss and fold."

right. except i might decide to call or raise a 9 high flop. because ill like my hand all the sudden. or maybe it comes 3 spades and i have Js. or maybe it comes KQ9 with two suits that i like. or or or. and these things combined happen often enough to matter. and the pot keeps getting bigger and there's someone to act behind me and he's not reading hands as well as i was before the flop so he's raising and im drawing and big pot forming and next thing i know we're at showdown and im calling because im getting x-teen to 1 or whatever and guy shows me what i had known he had in the first place. been there done that. next hand please.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You either flop a set and collect a big pot or you miss and fold."

right. except i might decide to call or raise a 9 high flop. because ill like my hand all the sudden. or maybe it comes 3 spades and i have Js. or maybe it comes KQ9 with two suits that i like. or or or. and these things combined happen often enough to matter. and the pot keeps getting bigger and there's someone to act behind me and he's not reading hands as well as i was before the flop so he's raising and im drawing and big pot forming and next thing i know we're at showdown and im calling because im getting x-teen to 1 or whatever and guy shows me what i had known he had in the first place. been there done that. next hand please.

[/ QUOTE ]

But none of these are reasons to fold.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You either flop a set and collect a big pot or you miss and fold."

right. except i might decide to call or raise a 9 high flop. because ill like my hand all the sudden. or maybe it comes 3 spades and i have Js. or maybe it comes KQ9 with two suits that i like. or or or. and these things combined happen often enough to matter. and the pot keeps getting bigger and there's someone to act behind me and he's not reading hands as well as i was before the flop so he's raising and im drawing and big pot forming and next thing i know we're at showdown and im calling because im getting x-teen to 1 or whatever and guy shows me what i had known he had in the first place. been there done that. next hand please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike -

I agree with a lot of what you've written here. My question for you then, is....

given what you've written, it seems you'd be a lot happier calling with 66 in this spot than JJ...is this true?

Josh

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"But none of these are reasons to fold."

theyre reasons why the fold is less bad than it may initially seem. reverse implied odds tear down some of the implied odds when i flop a set and make a bundle and everything's happy.

whoever said this is the worst fold in a long time is wrong.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

<font color="blue">whoever said this is the worst fold in a long time is wrong. </font>

That wasn't me. But I do think you play too well after the flop to be using any of those reasons as an excuse not to play. Pre-flop and after the flop are seperate decisions. Pre-flop there is +EV in a call. After the flop, you'll play appropriately given what develops. The two aren't necessarily exclusive.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"Pre-flop and after the flop are seperate decisions"

no

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

I've heard it said that the only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity.

I usually am frightened to death when I see my name in a post title. Seeing it there with yours, though, caused a sigh of relief.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Pre-flop and after the flop are seperate decisions"

no

[/ QUOTE ]

I say, yes. Please explain...

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

i mean, i already explained man, that's what my whole thing was about. RIO are significant. that's why you got to really think about what sort of slippery slope youre walking into preflop sometimes. at least that's the way i like to play now. lower variance, less thin edges, more fear = happier richer mike l.

in other words it's not a +EV preflop call for me if im prone to changing my read on perceived happy flops or getting into messy rio/io problems on drawing flops.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"I usually am frightened to death when I see my name in a post title. Seeing it there with yours, though, caused a sigh of relief."

Well Andy there is definitely some accuracy in mike's post title. He outdid me. Not by folding the jacks. But by talking about it so lucidly and truthfully, and explaining exactly why it could be right to make that fold, when he replied to this...

"You either flop a set and collect a big pot or you miss and fold."

...with this...

"right. except i might decide to call or raise a 9 high flop. because ill like my hand all the sudden. or maybe it comes 3 spades and i have Js. or maybe it comes KQ9 with two suits that i like. or or or. and these things combined happen often enough to matter. and the pot keeps getting bigger and there's someone to act behind me and he's not reading hands as well as i was before the flop so he's raising and im drawing and big pot forming and next thing i know we're at showdown and im calling because im getting x-teen to 1 or whatever and guy shows me what i had known he had in the first place. been there done that. next hand please."

nh

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You either flop a set and collect a big pot or you miss and fold."

right. except i might decide to call or raise a 9 high flop. because ill like my hand all the sudden. or maybe it comes 3 spades and i have Js. or maybe it comes KQ9 with two suits that i like. or or or. and these things combined happen often enough to matter. and the pot keeps getting bigger and there's someone to act behind me and he's not reading hands as well as i was before the flop so he's raising and im drawing and big pot forming and next thing i know we're at showdown and im calling because im getting x-teen to 1 or whatever and guy shows me what i had known he had in the first place. been there done that. next hand please.

[/ QUOTE ]

mike,

you play too well to fold because you think it might cause you to play bad postflop. if i was playing the hand these points would be valid, but you're not as dumb as me.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

What makes this fold particularly weird is that your read was way off. This guy Andy is notoriously erratic preflop often 3betting with hands like T6s and Q3s in MP. I assume his 4betting standards are tighter but since you were only playing 20 minutes with him, I'm not sure how you were so confident you had him pegged.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"only playing 20 minutes with him, I'm not sure how you were so confident you had him pegged."

is that his name? ive played with him many times before. he tends to be more of a loose caller when he's tilting and losing, he was up like 3-4 racks from the looks of his stack. i watched him fold 99 in the sb for 3 bets when i was sitting in the 8 seat next to him. he is very capable of playing very tight and ive seen him do it repeatedly for long stretches.

the main tell was the way he started talking to the guy on the button in seat 6. i only caught snippets of the dialogue but the look on his face and in his eyes exuded confidence. then when he raised it was that adrenaline filled slam-slam-slam-slam fast 4 bet. this guy plays for ego, if you looked like he does you would too, being decent at poker is his entire life i would bet, and his demeanor oozed AA.

which seat were you?

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

I agree that your read is probley right but is it totally impossible for this guy to have AK suited or say QQ which still has you dominated but like you said, you have 5 to 1 plus implied odds. I don’t think you’re out of line in calling especially if you hit the board. You can exploit his cockiness and take 1 or 2 extra bets off him. I think you’re a pretty good expert at this by the way. Besides a set, you have other outs as well, remember your runner runners. That’s what I would do, but then again I’m JV. =)

-Crazy Mike

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
i get JJ today in the 1-2 at commerce. i raise mp, button who is loose passive 3 bets, short asian guy who is tight with raises and who folded 99 to a 3 bet in the sb earlier starts talking all cocky like to the button and saying stuff like whatre you gonna do if i 4 bet. he's relishing the moment i gather. then he 4 bets. i fold, getting 5 to 1 plus implied odds should i flop a set, but not caring because im certain im against AA or maybe KK and dont want to be bothered with such technicalities.

how bad is that?

[/ QUOTE ]


txredman folds


txredman limped aces last year


tex will never live down that post


flawlwess victory is a tool

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

I figured you already explained this. Just probing for more, cuz I don't agree with it. Variance sucks, but thin edges should be exploited. And fear has no place in poker.

Anyway, I'll be back in town playing that game in a few weeks. Look forward to meeting and playing with you. Does Eva still play every day?

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

Mike,

Getting 10:2 on a call, I'd think you need to make up about ~8-10SB on average when you call here. If the "loose-passive" guy were a tight-passive player, then I think it's close; but with a loosie trapped in between you two if you flop a set and no real fear of losing too many postflop bets when you don't flop good, I think it's a bad fold. Not catastrophically bad or anything, but slightly -EV. If you have the control to fold preflop you definitely have the control to fold on the flop when you don't spike.

Rob

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"Does Eva still play every day?"

yes but her status has been lowered to minor fish compared to some of the people coming in there lately.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
right. except i might decide to call or raise a 9 high flop. because I'll like my hand all of a sudden.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, You wont. Not if you have this guy pegged at AA or KK. If you don't have him pegged at AA or KK, then folding JJ is wrong for other reasons. In any event, I already alluded to this possibility in my initial post when I said that playing JJ is harder in this spot if you can't peg the guy in the blinds on an overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
or maybe it comes 3 spades and i have Js. or maybe it comes KQ9 with two suits that i like. or or or. and these things combined happen often enough to matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, they do matter but they matter in your favor. These are additional reasons to call preflop and not fold preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
next hand please.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a near cinch that on your next hand, your EV position will be much worse than your EV on this JJ hand.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

hi mike,

take a second right now and stop everything and really give yourself persmission to fold a 9 high flop for one bet with JJ if you are ever in this situation again. that way you can call for your implied odds and fold if you don't flop a set. you know you can do it, you just weren't ready this time. next time you will be.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

what about those messy flops like KQ9 and A72 of my suit?

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

"is it totally impossible for this guy to have AK suited"

if im making that sort of laydown then my read is dead on. that's how im able to call you down with 9 high that one time.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

You can fold those too if you feel like it.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

no. sometimes it's right to call on those. moreso then the preflop call. but they are sticky spots where you can have high variance and a thin edge.

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

[ QUOTE ]
no. sometimes it's right to call on those. moreso then the preflop call. but they are sticky spots where you can have high variance and a thin edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've missed his point.

-DeathDonkey

Re: outdoing tommy, andy fox, and maybe even TxRedMan!
 

You can fold those too if you feel like it. You'll still have an edge from the times you flop a set and get paid off.