$10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

Hey there. Just getting used to PLO and had a tough hand last night.

Sorry for the lack of hand history, I'm at work and this is bugging me... stacks and bet sizes are rough estimates from memory.

$10 PLO 6-max on Full Tilt

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG and I are both big stacks at the table with around $20 each. He's got me barely covered. He was big stack when I sat down and has stayed pretty quiet through a few orbits.

UTG bets pot for $0.35, folded to me in LP. I repot for $1.20, folded to UTG who calls.

(pot = $2.55) Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks, I bet pot for $2.55, UTG calls.

(pot = $7.65) Turn is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG checks, I bet 1/2 pot for $3.80, UTG bets pot, leaving me to call ~$13 more into a ~$28 pot.

This looks a lot like nut flush to me, and I've got one of my boat draws in hand. Is this a good laydown, easy call, or somewhere in between?

Also feel free to flame me on all other streets. I'm not thrilled about my decisions preflop or leading the turn.

Thanks, and I look forward to a heavy learning curve on this forum.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

Yah turn is a bet-fold against a 'quiet' opponent here, assuming you've got the stack depth.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

You played the hand fine. I like your line actually, KKJT is a great hand so 3bet is fine, flop plays itself, and the turn is a bet/fold unless you have seen him get out of line or he is over agro, from the sound of it he isn't. He isn't raising you like this with a 9 high flush or worse. You have only have 9 outs to fill up.

Unless you think that he is full often **** enough to make up for you only being 5:1 to make full house you should fold here.

If you only had 100BB ($10), then you wouldn't fold here odviously as you would only have to put in like 2.50 more.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

I did fold. And thanks for the help. This game is fun.

Since it seems that in these big pots, when you basically need the nuts, and the nuts changes on every street, even playing a solid game makes you feel like an action junkie.

In this pot I went from 2nd nuts, KK preflop, to top nuts with a set of kings, to third nuts, J-flush...

I also like the pot-limit betting since it seems, at least so far, that it's easier to leverage your hand to create big pots or keep them small, especially in position, and especially in loose-passive games.

I've read the Omaha sections of SS2 and Stewart & Reuben's Pot-Limit and No-Limit, and just ordered Slotboom's and Ciaffone's Omaha books. It's like I'm back in school again.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

u should have never considered folding this hand...

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
u should have never considered folding this hand...

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How often do you think I'm ahead here?

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
u should have never considered folding this hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make this call playing deep money then you're going to leave alot of money on the table

Yeah you played this fine . As haz31 said if the money was more shallow you'd still get it in on this turn

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u should have never considered folding this hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make this call playing deep money then you're going to leave alot of money on the table

Yeah you played this fine . As haz31 said if the money was more shallow you'd still get it in on this turn

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I agree that if I were much shorter I'd be in for sure, and happy to be with my redraws.

A quick calculation says (assuming I'm beat at this point) I'd need to have no more than $4.66 behind to call profitably to my boat. I'd probably go up to around $6 in practice given the remote chance I am ahead here, and I wouldn't want to advertise that I could fold easily to a scare card after being such an aggressor.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

Whoa. Shouldn't we be checking behind on the turn as a general default play here?

After all, what is UTG calling us with on the flop? It is either a straight draw, lower set, or a flush draw (or bare aces or weak two pair if really bad ). On the turn the nut flush draw got there, but we have the straight draw drawing dead and lower set drawing essentially dead.

If we check behind on the turn, we re-evaluate the river. Bet-raise if the board pairs. Decide whether or not to call if not. UTG could have a decent wrap with a lower flush and may value bet that on the river. We also could snap off a bluff. If UTG is really tight, I would check fold a nonpairing river.

As played, definitely fold turn barring a read of UTG as a tilting action monkey junkie or YOUR image is very laggy and someone may reraise you very, very lightly.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

Yah I'm liking check behind here and call river unimproved, that may be a superior line.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

Yeah, turn for me was one of those where I really wasn't sure what to do. At the time I figured 1/2 pot would be enough for a smaller flush to call me, and I'd fold to the pot bet. However, if they had a smaller flush I could get the same value on the river along with a free chance to outdraw the nut flush.

Come to think of it my checking behind might make UTG think they're low flush is good and they might fire the pot at me on a blank river. I think I'd have to call the river no matter what then.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

you are good 62 percent of the time here..

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
A quick calculation says (assuming I'm beat at this point) I'd need to have no more than $4.66 behind to call profitably to my boat. I'd probably go up to around $6 in practice given the remote chance I am ahead here, and I wouldn't want to advertise that I could fold easily to a scare card after being such an aggressor.

[/ QUOTE ]

A more appropriate calculation to make here is how often does UTG have to be making a move on you in order for you to call (since you'll be all-in).

Since you have 9 outs out of 42 cards if he has you beat, and he has at most 1 out out of 44 cards if you have him beat, the answer in this case works out to 1 time in 7.5.

So the question here is, does this guy make this play with a 9 high flush or less more than 1 time in 7.5?

Considering the stakes level, and your description of the player, I say no. So good fold.

If this was a significantly higher stakes level, you probably should have called since players there are much more likely to try to make a move on you.

Also, considering the nature of solid players at these stakes (i.e. nut-peddlers), I agree that a check behind is probably the better play because you're either drawing fairly thin or he's crushed. If your opponent is an ABC nut peddler then your bet is either going to make him fold (when he was probably drawing dead anyway) or make him push you off your hand (and thus lose your 20%, or so, equity in the pot). There are very, very few hands a nut peddler just calls you with here.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are good 62 percent of the time here..

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How exactly did you come to that number?

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

That 62% number is awfully close to how often 3rd flush is good against 6 random opponents. Perhaps that's were he's getting it from (even though this is 6 handed and you're against a single opponent who is far from random).

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

Your turn bet was terrible. That is a standard check-behind vs. most opponents and a bet-small-then-call vs. bluffers/overagro monkeys.

you'll make more vs. hands you are ahead of and lose less with hands you are behind to.

-g

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
That 62% number is awfully close to how often 3rd flush is good against 6 random opponents. Perhaps that's were he's getting it from (even though this is 6 handed and you're against a single opponent who is far from random).

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Thanks, that enlightens things a bit. I can't imagine I'm anywhere near 62% here.

I can only wish my random hands are that strong [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

That 62% is not quite worthless but if you're going to spout figures like that you need to inlclude some Bayes in your analysis.

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are good 62 percent of the time here..

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these random hands? There isnt many players who will call here without the nut flush and the check raise all in on the turn. I think that this is an easy read and an easier fold in this situation IMO

Re: $10PLO, top set and 3rd flush, big pot
 

I agree with check behind, then play the river accordingly. If you are going to bet the turn, I think you have to bet the pot. Then you know only a nut flush draw will be check raising you at that point (hopefully!). At that point figure out ur pot odds to your full house draw.

Based on what did happen on the turn, you have to play ur hand as if it is only a full house draw, period. Forget about the flush at that point and only call if the full house draw gives you the proper pot odds.