folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

villain is loose prefloop but a TAG postflop. He cold calls a fair amount, but in the 50-100 I have seen him 3bet a late position raise with 66 in the CO.

folded to me in utg+2, I raise KK, mp 3bets, folded to BB who calls (he is an idiot), I cap.

3 to the flop for 12.5 sb

flop 247 rainbow or some other uncoordinated garbage

BB checks, I bet, mp raises, BB folds, I 3bet, He caps, I fold.

-looking at the pot size being 19.5 sb I think a call here is definitely right just on the chance I hit a king.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

If you really know him, sure. But, if you're that confident, you give up some equity by folding, and you can always stop at 2 flop bets to try to spike.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

I think it's a pretty bad fold. As you said, even if you're behind you should call and try to hit a king, but I don't think you are necessarily behind. You might have the best hand against an aggressive opponent like him.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

Very bad. As you noted, even if you are 100% that he has 77 or AA, you must peel to try to hit a set. And can you really know he never does this with QQ/JJ (perhaps planning to take a "free" showdown if you call down)?

And you really need a killer read to fold KK HU on a dry board.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very bad. As you noted, even if you are 100% that he has 77 or AA, you must peel to try to hit a set. And can you really know he never does this with QQ/JJ (perhaps planning to take a "free" showdown if you call down)?

And you really need a killer read to fold KK HU on a dry board.

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From your description of his betting habits you can't fold here. If you intended to fold to a cap then there's little purpose in putting in that third flop bet.

This guy could have any pocket pair here, from the middle up. You could trail a set of sevens or pocket aces but you lead against the majority of his range. Even AK or AQ could be played this way (especially if he has reason to believe that you'd throw away anything but the mortal nuts here).

You have to call down here. This is a very big pot and you may be ahead. If he has aces, bully for him.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

of all the possible hands he could be holding, you have about 70% of them beat, folding cant possibly be justified when you can call down to the river for just 10% of the pot.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

Wow, I don't think I could ever fold this hand in this position. There are so many hands this guy could have. I think he has 88-QQ more than enough times to merit a call down at worst. I don't see how we can put him exactly on 77 or AA at this point. No way I'm not seeing a SD here.

And how can you justify a flop fold for 1sb after a 3-way preflop cap and flop cap??

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
From your description of his betting habits you can't fold here. If you intended to fold to a cap then there's little purpose in putting in that third flop bet

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I 3bet for info, I figured if he caps he has to have nothing less than aces. But yes, the pot is way to big to fold with a chance of hitting a set on turn. I think if I call the turn I would still fold the river though. If he is a good thinking player do you guys think he will cap the flop with anything less than aces ?(I am pretty sure he sees me as a tight reasonable player, I tend to slow down here, but folding something like this is new to me).

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

maybe thats why im not quite a regular at middle limit yet... but i'd suck it up and take out 2 big bets and 2 small bets and just call him down, since it is heads up... it is pretty evident that he has PP, but did he get lucky with 7-7 (u said hes capable of 3betting with 6-6), AA, or maybe he is obsessed with his inferior pocket paint?

On a side note, I ran into a very similar situation while playing last week... I raised with pocket Q's in MP, SB 3 bet, and I capped it... rag flop came, i bet, he raise, I 3 bet, he capped, turn comes another low card and I bet again, he raised, I 3 bet, and he folded, stating that he is not drawing to 2 outs.. later on, I found out that we were both drawing dead, but my agression won me the pot

just my 0.02

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

I think you have this hand backwards. Look at it from his point of view; he's heads up with a player capable of making a big fold. Why would he need a good hand to put in an extra bet? The chance that you might fold a big overpair makes it right for him to fire an extra sb with many holdings.

If you had described him as tight and unimaginitive, you might come up with a read of AA as the only hand. Based on your description, I might check call the rest of the way because I trust him to bluff another 2BB at the pot when I'm way ahead. I'm not sure I'd fold to the 3-bet after I CR the river.

Without a great read, I can't see folding this heads up. Even with a read, you're playing limit and this can't be a place to make money with a raise for information. I may be a wrong, but at this point I can't see you as an underdog in the hand. This isn't a fold in a big pot.

Maybe I'm leaking chips and you're making a much better fold that I'm capable of making. The thing I like most about this hand is that you didn't show the KK when you folded.

GL,

Doug

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
I 3bet for info, I figured if he caps he has to have nothing less than aces. But yes, the pot is way to big to fold with a chance of hitting a set on turn. I think if I call the turn I would still fold the river though. If he is a good thinking player do you guys think he will cap the flop with anything less than aces ?(I am pretty sure he sees me as a tight reasonable player, I tend to slow down here, but folding something like this is new to me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Aces are a strong possibility. No one would doubt that, but they aren't the only possibility. You have to call down with your kings here. You can't call the turn and fold the river. That's worse than folding the turn.

Just because you might lose the hand doesn't mean you've played it badly in calling down.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

First off, even if his hand was flashed, you still are absolutely right to call the flop, and you know that, so I'm just going to assume that you called the flop and a blank came on the turn. If you fold the turn, and you're right, you save about 1.5 BB, (the bets you save minus the times you spike a king on the river). If you're wrong, and you're against KK or something, you lose 12.5 BB.

One's a very small mistake, the other one's a huge mistake. You need to be 90% sure that you're beat here in order to fold. Even if you're behind 80% of the time, folding is a mistake that costs you a bet and a half on average.

Now, "sort of LAP preflop and sort of TAG postflop" is not the kind of read I'd be 90% sure about here. How many times do you see a pot pumped four way only for the winner to turn over top pair? Maybe if your read was "rock-tight 90 year old man who hates to raise", this play would have merit, but I'm just not seeing it here.

Re: folding KK on a raggedy board to a lot of aggression
 

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looking at the pot size being 19.5 sb I think a call here is definitely right just on the chance I hit a king.

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Big pot. H/U with KK. I ch/c down every time here.

Heroic folds in limit poker leave little margin for error.