KK is this Standard
 

I wanted to protect my hand is this fine?

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1140)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1920)
Hero (t1500)
Button (t1460)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t20, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t20, <font color="red">Hero raises to t120</font>, Button calls t120, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t100, MP3 calls t100

Flop: (t510) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t350

Re: KK is this Standard
 

ya but be wary of a set if you get check-raised

Re: KK is this Standard
 

Fold preflop.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

think this is perfect - can look like a c bet miss plus you want to get some money in the pot

think if you get called or raised it is far more often kj, aj or a spade draw. i'd go broke or double up on this hand if c/r

Re: KK is this Standard
 

not bad but I would bet a bit more preflop, 150-250 depending on how loose the table is. With blinds at 20 early on, sometimes I get too many callers with 120 raises. I really do not want to go to a flop with 4 of us with a hand that will not improve.

Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.

You want action with your KK but you do not want 4 to the flop, where you may be around 35% to win. I would rather get the same amount of chips in with one other and be 75%.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

[ QUOTE ]
Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.

[/ QUOTE ]This is a good way to lose a lot of chips.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.


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This is not good.

OP, you played it fine.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.


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This is not good.

OP, you played it fine.

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Re: KK is this Standard
 

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]Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.


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Wow... yeah this is just incredliby terrible advice.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

This is totally standard. You could raise more PF, but it's kind of pointless. Raising 120 or 150 isn't going to make a difference. I might bet 400-500 on this flop w/ 550 in it, but looks ok overall.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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not bad but I would bet a bit more preflop, 150-250 depending on how loose the table is. With blinds at 20 early on, sometimes I get too many callers with 120 raises. I really do not want to go to a flop with 4 of us with a hand that will not improve.

Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.

You want action with your KK but you do not want 4 to the flop, where you may be around 35% to win. I would rather get the same amount of chips in with one other and be 75%.

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No no. You got it all wrong. Min-raise PF, fold if you get re-raised. On the flop, no matter what, push for all your chips.

Better yet, just min-raise the whole hand through. Min-raies PF, min bet flop, min-bet turn, etc.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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not bad but I would bet a bit more preflop, 150-250 depending on how loose the table is. With blinds at 20 early on, sometimes I get too many callers with 120 raises. I really do not want to go to a flop with 4 of us with a hand that will not improve.

Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.

You want action with your KK but you do not want 4 to the flop, where you may be around 35% to win. I would rather get the same amount of chips in with one other and be 75%.

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No no. You got it all wrong. Min-raise PF, fold if you get re-raised. On the flop, no matter what, push for all your chips.

Better yet, just min-raise the whole hand through. Min-raies PF, min bet flop, min-bet turn, etc.

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I believe "min-raise all streets" should become the default strategy for any hand we choose to play in any position all the time - talk about being hard to read!

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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not bad but I would bet a bit more preflop, 150-250 depending on how loose the table is. With blinds at 20 early on, sometimes I get too many callers with 120 raises. I really do not want to go to a flop with 4 of us with a hand that will not improve.

Other strategy is to min raise preflop, hope you get reraised by a big ace then pop them.

You want action with your KK but you do not want 4 to the flop, where you may be around 35% to win. I would rather get the same amount of chips in with one other and be 75%.

[/ QUOTE ]

No no. You got it all wrong. Min-raise PF, fold if you get re-raised. On the flop, no matter what, push for all your chips.

Better yet, just min-raise the whole hand through. Min-raies PF, min bet flop, min-bet turn, etc.

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I don't think sarcastic answers are particularly helpful. The hand is fine as played. The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

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Push

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

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Say, "Thank you God!" and call/raise/reraise and see how many chips you can get in the middle.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

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Say, "Thank you God!" and call/raise/reraise and see how many chips you can get in the middle.

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BUT YOUR TOURNAMENT LIFE IS AT RISK!

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say, "Thank you God!" and call/raise/reraise and see how many chips you can get in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

BUT YOUR TOURNAMENT LIFE IS AT RISK!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah-ha, but I always multitable, so my tournament life is NEVER at risk. I think of it as akin to existing in multiple realities simultaneously. It's my way of sticking it to The Man.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

Preflop raise size makes a huge difference.

My experience has been 120 raise (5x BB) just starting off is simply too small relative to starting stacks on Stars, and gets lots of callers with Ax suited, other draws etc. This is exactly what you do not want (with KK). As you played this hand you are around 35% to win, and will have a hard time folding your kings post flop.

I have found that raises of 175-250 will isolate down to 1 caller much more effectively, although it seems like an additional 55 chips shouldnt matter it does.

As far as my alternate strategy of min raise (to 40, from EP or MP) then pushing any reraise, I have had success with this. What will happen is I get 2-3 callers at 40 behind, then AQ,AK,99-QQ in LP will pop in a big raise hoping to steal all the min-limps or double up early. I push over the top and am a 70-30 favorite to stack him, and take the limpers chips as well. This is not my standard play however, just for mixing it up early in a tournament. Normally I raise as I said 150-250.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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As far as my alternate strategy of min raise (to 40, from EP or MP) then pushing any reraise, I have had success with this.

[/ QUOTE ]What do you do when they all call and the flop is 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

It is not good to proclaim your hand (a min raise is almost always AA/kk) and giving speculative hands no-brainer odds to call.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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Normally I raise as I said 150-250.

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Like I said earlier, who is calling 150 that isn't calling 120? 4xBB + 1BB for every limper is standard (6xBB in this situation) and going away from your standard raises gives away your hand. If you make the same raise w/ 67s as you do w/ AA or KK you will make opponents make harder postflop decisions because they have less info. I understand pumping up the pot and thinning the field, but we don't want to drive all hands that we destroy out of the hand either. This is especially true if you are confident in your post flop play.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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This is totally standard. You could raise more PF, but it's kind of pointless. Raising 120 or 150 isn't going to make a difference.

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Wrong, it will make a difference when they whiff the flop and you take it down with a C-bet.

Something to think about: When you are AHEAD and you are likely to be ahead on the next street it is correct (more often than not) to bet as much as you think your opponent will call. The bigger FTOP mistake they make - the better off we are.

It ALSO makes a difference due to IMPLIED POT ODDS you're offering. If I know that you will most likely go to the felt with your big pokets or TPTK type hands - then I'm NOT making a mistake calling 100 raise with more than 1K behind with, say, suited connectors or small pocket pairs. to call 130 raise becomes a bit iffy for SC's, 150 raise - they are not getting good odds and with 200 raise they are barely getting correct odds on their pocket pairs.

I like 150 - 170 raise here.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

FWIW- I'll often bomb it with a huge bet in the 4/180s just because these guys will call almsot anything after they limp (I still don't understand why people limp and call huge bets, but fold to open raisers) and it makes for a nice pot when I take it down with a c-bet.

Depends on the table though. I am always going to be the maximum I think I can get called.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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This is totally standard. You could raise more PF, but it's kind of pointless. Raising 120 or 150 isn't going to make a difference.

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Wrong, it will make a difference when they whiff the flop and you take it down with a C-bet.

Something to think about: When you are AHEAD and you are likely to be ahead on the next street it is correct (more often than not) to bet as much as you think your opponent will call. The bigger FTOP mistake they make - the better off we are.

It ALSO makes a difference due to IMPLIED POT ODDS you're offering. If I know that you will most likely go to the felt with your big pokets or TPTK type hands - then I'm NOT making a mistake calling 100 raise with more than 1K behind with, say, suited connectors or small pocket pairs. to call 130 raise becomes a bit iffy for SC's, 150 raise - they are not getting good odds and with 200 raise they are barely getting correct odds on their pocket pairs.

I like 150 - 170 raise here.

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But the reasoning behind it wasn't what you say above (which I agree with) but instead was to thin the field because KK plays better 2-3 way instead of multiway. I'm just saying that if a player limps, he is calling 150 as often as he's calling 120, so it doesn't make a difference.

Also, my std raise is 4xBB+1BB for every limper in the early rounds (up to 50/100 blinds), so I don't like to get away from that because it disguises the strength of my hand. I just don't think there was anything wrong with this PF or post flop.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

Yeah, I wasnt clear - 120 vs 150 i have found makes a difference if i am first to act. If I have 2 limpers behind (like in the above hand) then I will bet more, say 200. I agree with you if someone limped 20 chips they will call 150 vs 120.

My whole point is to isolate - the line between keeping one weaker hand in the pot and scaring out the whole table can vary. I do vary my opening raises somewhat, and like I said I'll min raise sometimes too, just to vary my play.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

There is a fine line between thinning the field and betting everyone out. The problem is that button called giving ~3:1 to the 1st limper and 4:1 on the 2nd limper, so I think even a raise to 200 wouldn't thin the field as much as you would like if the button is calling. Whatever, this is splitting hairs. We're probably playing this multiway w/ any raise other than something ridiculous and I don't there is anything wrong w/ the PF play. The c-bet is standard and I expect to get c/r by AJ/2 spades as often as a set. After this flop I'm trying to get as many chips in the pot as possible w/ my overpair.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say, "Thank you God!" and call/raise/reraise and see how many chips you can get in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

BUT YOUR TOURNAMENT LIFE IS AT RISK!

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Seriously, you think check-raise is a lower pair often enough to call? In my experience it's almost ALWAYS a set

[/confirmation bias]

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say, "Thank you God!" and call/raise/reraise and see how many chips you can get in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

BUT YOUR TOURNAMENT LIFE IS AT RISK!

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, you think check-raise is a lower pair often enough to call? In my experience it's almost ALWAYS a set

[/confirmation bias]

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You have either been running bad, playing cash games, or both.....

Re: KK is this Standard
 

Yeah, this is Pokerstars, sometimes it doesn't matter how much you raise PF. In the first round you'll still have a multiway pot. I've seen All ins go mulitway there in the first round.

I think you played this hand fine. I agree with the last poster, maybe betting closer to the size of the pot may be better.

Re: KK is this Standard
 

I bet 500, they put you on missed AK the closer you bet it to the size of the pot.

Pot the flop push the turn get called by 99 gg him.

You run into sets or two pair, but not enough to not start chucking chips at the pot with both hands.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: KK is this Standard
 

half the pot -- 250 would be good

Re: KK is this Standard
 

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The question for me is WHAT DO YOU DO IF RAISED OR CHECK-RAISED?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say, "Thank you God!" and call/raise/reraise and see how many chips you can get in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

BUT YOUR TOURNAMENT LIFE IS AT RISK!

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, you think check-raise is a lower pair often enough to call? In my experience it's almost ALWAYS a set

[/confirmation bias]

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You have either been running bad, playing cash games, or both.....

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Yuh-huh [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: KK is this Standard
 

What's the buyin?

Re: KK is this Standard
 

Yeah I agree these $4 are crazy. I've been raising about 120-200 depending on if I'm the open raiser or theier limpers. It doesnt seenm to matter thought I'll usually get 2-4 callers in both cases making it impossible to tell where I"m at in the hand until I've invested over half my stack.