American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

If you believe the polls and I do for the most part, the Republicans are going to lose the House and maybe the Senate too. The conventional wisdom is that the Iraq war is the biggest factor. I have no doubts that the Iraq war is a big factor in this election but I'm always skeptical of the conventional wisdom. I'm wondering if the issues of personal freedom and privacy rights aren't close to being just as significant. I'm fairly certain they are.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I think there's something to this. The war makes Democrats really enraged, but I think they've consistently failed to make a really effective push for Republican votes on the matter. From personal experience, the real issue for moderate Republicans is the complete shittiness of the GOP establishment, particularly in Congress. No real legislative agenda, massive spending, constant scandals. I think it even goes beyond the narrow issues of privacy and freedom.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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I'm wondering if the issues of personal freedom and privacy rights aren't close to being just as significant. I'm fairly certain they are.

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I think you're right on. I used to vote primarily republican but have totally switched for these reasons.

Back in the days of the reconstruction following the civil war, it was the southern democrats who enacted all of the Jim Crow laws. Most southern states who seceeded were almost exclusively electing democrats. Lincoln, a republican, was all about civil liberties.

It seems as though the two parties have flipped 180 degrees in this regard. I wonder how that even happened.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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Lincoln, a republican, was all about civil liberties.


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I recommend investing in a history book.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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I think there's something to this. The war makes Democrats really enraged, but I think they've consistently failed to make a really effective push for Republican votes on the matter. From personal experience, the real issue for moderate Republicans is the complete shittiness of the GOP establishment, particularly in Congress. No real legislative agenda, massive spending, constant scandals. I think it even goes beyond the narrow issues of privacy and freedom.

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As a moderate Republican, I agree with several of your points. To be perfectly honest, the right-wing faction scares me more than Hillary. But I don't have any hopes that the Democrats can fix a thing.

My thinking now is that the ideal balance would be a fairly lameduck president and a split house. I figure our economy can outpace the siphoning off of billions, but maybe not the tens of billions, that a single party in control of congress and the presidency can seem to muster.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I used to vote Republican for the most part. I will not anytime in the near future for the following non-inclusive (and not ordered in any partiuclar way) reasons:

1) Iraq: I wasn't for it in the first place, it's been a catastrophe, and we need to begin a phased withdrawal, not "stay the course." Add into this mix the total incompetent approach to this war.
2) Financial irresponsibility: effectively setting money on fire.
3) Total disregard for civil rights/privacy rights: 'Nuff said.
4) The hijacking of the GOP by dangerous religous fanatics: Whenever I mention this in conversation, people look at me like I'm anti-Christian. I'm actually a church-going Christian, but I don't think much of the "Christianity" practiced by people like Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, etc.
5)The Unlawful Internet Gambling Act.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I agree with you on all of your points and I was a mostly Republican voter for most of my life as well. What interests me is the polling. I have come to the conclusion that the average 2+2er, online poker player, tends to be conservative in fiscal issues and a libertarian in social issues. I also think these people exist in large numbers and are poorly represented when it comes to polling information. Although the UIGEA is not mentioned by a lot of my friends who tend to feel the way I do, the encroachment of the government into personal freedom has them worried more then just about anything else.

What is interesting is that if the Democrats do take control of congress next week how many polls will actually reflect this concern or will just have Iraq, the economy or some other broad category of reasons why the Republicans lost.

The other worry is that the Democrats will start crowing about how the victory is due to Americans embracing their philosophies instead of recognizing that the vote was as much a revolt against Republicans rather then an endorsement of their programs.

Next Tuesday will be an interesting day to watch.

Whatever happens, we need to keep the fight of personal freedom going.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

A lot of people are thankfully going anti-republican, but the democrats aren't really any different. History has shown that they're capable of pointless warmongery and wasteful spending too. People seem to be hoping for gridlock, that the federal congress simply gets rendered impotent and useless. That's well and good, but I wish people would start moving in the other direction: supporting the removal of the federal government.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

Well, I am sending them my message for the little it's worth. Voting Libertarian after many years of Rep voting. I'm one of those fiscal conservative, libertarian social issues people mentioned earlier. At this point can't stomach either of the two majors. Been thinking this way for a while, online gambling ban put me over the edge. Them telling me what I can't do in my own living room with my own money is too much.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

The media keeps trying to make this about Iraq. Websites like this are the only place to find out what people really think.

People have decided that they don't want the religious right in control anymore imo. No more legislating morality.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

The media keeps trying to make this about Iraq. Websites like this are the only place to find out what people really think.

People have decided that they don't want the religious right in control anymore imo. No more legislating morality.

NIraq is clearly the #1 issue for the public according to most polls. It helps that the Foley and Abramoff scandals help illuminate the hypocrisy of so many preachy public officials, but it really is more about the terrible leadership the GOP has shown in the wake of 9/11 than it is any rebellion against pro-life, anti-gambling or anti-drug whatever.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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The media keeps trying to make this about Iraq. Websites like this are the only place to find out what people really think.

People have decided that they don't want the religious right in control anymore imo. No more legislating morality.

NIraq is clearly the #1 issue for the public according to most polls. It helps that the Foley and Abramoff scandals help illuminate the hypocrisy of so many preachy public officials, but it really is more about the terrible leadership the GOP has shown in the wake of 9/11 than it is any rebellion against pro-life, anti-gambling or anti-drug whatever.

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it really has taken a ton of incompetence - from Katrina in NOLA to the cronyism that was the standard for Post Iraqi reconstruction to just the bald faced hypocricy of it's elected officials to the idiocy of this administration in diverting forces from the capture of Bin Laden to Iraq prematurely.

Had any of us done our job this badly, we'd be homeless trying to scrape out a living at 1/2NL in Vegas -

It's like trying to take out [censored] Tony Montoya - 20 shells in the chest and he's still fuming saying "wanna mess with me?" - except half the shots were self inflicted and the other half will come from defecting Repubs. and values voters who no longer share the values of the Rep. party.

makes me smile - see? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

rb

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I'm not so sure the public is sending a message to the Republicans. I think too much emphasis is placed on the political parties. I think most elections hinge on the people runing and issues which people in the states and localities are concerned about. If the Dems win big, I don't think it is necessarily because the public repudiated the Republican Party and what it "stands for." Nor would it mean they have approved of what the Democratic Party "stands for."

It would just mean that more candidate who were Democratic won than who were Republican.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I agree with the OP that these issues should be a big factor, but I don't see how you could say that they are.

If they mattered at all, wouldn't they be brought up at least every once in a while by someone, whether a media person or democratic candidate?

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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Back in the days of the reconstruction following the civil war, it was the southern democrats who enacted all of the Jim Crow laws. Most southern states who seceeded were almost exclusively electing democrats. Lincoln, a republican, was all about civil liberties.



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This is so mixed up, I have to respond, even if it is off topic.

First of all Lincoln may have been about civil rights but not civil liberties. There was a great deal of suppression of civil liberties during the Civil War, particularly in areas with strong Confederate sympathies, such as Maryland, Missouri, and southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.

Secondly, the Jim Crow laws were not enacted during Reconstruction. Right after the Civil War, most southern states enacted laws stronger than Jim Crow, which attempted to maintain a status of blacks similar to slavery. The radical Republicans in Congress enacted laws that prevented most whites from voting. These radical policies were fueled by anger in the north over heavy casualties in the war and a desire to make the war accomplish something by giving the slaves real freedom. This also assured control by teh Republican party of the national government, and resulted in the further looting of the south by politically connec ted northerners. Most southern governments then had Republican governments, with large numbers of black office holders and many northerners in key position.

With the compromise of 1876 which gave a disputed Presidential election to the Republican Hays, the military occupation of the south ended, and southern states reverted to white Democratic rule. Blacks continued to vote in most areas and were generally not subjected to legal restrictions.

The Jim Crow laws were generally passed in the 1890s long after Reconstruction and they remained in place until the 1960s.

The part that is true is that the Republican party was generally the party of civil rights and the Democratic party the party of segregation. However, the Republican party was also the party of big business in the late nineteenth century.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I think the public is unhappy not so much with the Republicans as with Bush. This is due primarily to the Iraq war, but also the Katrina, Cheney shooting the guy, and other things.

I think the Democrats may make gains larger than predicted. This may create more of a mess as the Democrats have a history of spending excessively, enacting questionable "liberal" legislation that creates various problems, and taking a weak approach to foreign policy.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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This may create more of a mess as the Democrats have a history of spending excessively, enacting questionable "liberal" legislation that creates various problems, and taking a weak approach to foreign policy.

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I Loled.

Record budgets, medicare prescription plan, iran, north korea..

You sure you got your parties right?

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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This may create more of a mess as the Democrats have a history of spending excessively, enacting questionable "liberal" legislation that creates various problems, and taking a weak approach to foreign policy.

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I Loled.

Record budgets, medicare prescription plan, iran, north korea..

You sure you got your parties right?

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I don't like what the Republicans have done, but from their past history, Democrats may make a bigger mess.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

I think the only possible way anybody could make a bigger mess, would be to elect a majority of Jerry's kids to congress.

Re: American Public About to Send a Message to the Republicans?
 

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I think the only possible way anybody could make a bigger mess, would be to elect a majority of Jerry's kids to congress.



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You would be surprised.