Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

Reraiser is jjberns, a regular at NL100. Decent TAG, not an idiot, not making a preflop move here. The non-PSR is probably a tell that says I want some action. What's my optimal play?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $116.70
CO: $100
Button: $229.35
Hero: $118.65
BB: $71.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $10</font>, Button folds, Hero...

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

call and c/r AI on most flops, c/c A high flops and fold to further aggression.

True

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

If he thinks you will 4-bet with less than you have then do it. If he thinks it can only be AA/KK then call.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

Reraise OOP w/ KK unless you have a good read that you can trap him easily. There are a good number of flops that will mess you up so get the money in now, when it seems like he wants to play with his marginal raise.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

By calling, we invite UTG along....is that not an issue?

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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By calling, we invite UTG along....is that not an issue?

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tbh it's not a huge issue, some may say it is, but it will make the pfr-r play more straightforward so it helps.

True

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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By calling, we invite UTG along....is that not an issue?

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That's what I'm struggling with, though if UTG comes along, then the chances of an A flopping are greatly diminished.

Against a bad player I think 4-betting OOP is the way to go, here I can see a call.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

aj,
i think you are overanalysing the the betting tell. the non psr probably doesn't mean squat, unless you have a history of him betting full pot every single time.

I would call and cr ai on many flops. who cares if UTG comes around, theres fairly few flops that we don't like. if there's an ace, check/fold. consider vbing the river if you get there hu. if there isn't an ace, cr ai sounds good, unless the flop is bad.

did you see a flop?

edit: i didn't really pay attention to stacks - a cr ai might be too much. cr 2/3 pot or even cr the turn; whatever. just check first, then get the money in later.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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though if UTG comes along, then the chances of an A flopping are greatly diminished

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could you please elaborate. i do not understand this what so ever.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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though if UTG comes along, then the chances of an A flopping are greatly diminished

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could you please elaborate. i do not understand this what so ever.

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I believe his reasoning is because it is more likely that both have one.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

kei - it means the probability of one (or both) having an ace is greater, so the chances of an ace flopping is lesser since there are only 4 in the deck.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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By calling, we invite UTG along....is that not an issue?

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I don't mind unless he a tricky, trappy player such as yourself [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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though if UTG comes along, then the chances of an A flopping are greatly diminished

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could you please elaborate. i do not understand this what so ever.

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AIUI if UTG tags along it's quite likely he holds an Ace and so there is less chance that an Ace hits the flop if there are only 3 left in the deck.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

I either make a PSR 4bet or 4bet shove (if he 3bets at all light)

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I either make a PSR 4bet or 4bet shove (if he 3bets at all light)

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Yeah, I did the PSR. I think pushing and calling is better than that in hindsight. At least I hit my draw. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $116.70
CO: $100
Button: $229.35
Hero: $118.65
BB: $71.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $10</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $34.5</font>, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($73.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero is all-in $84.15</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO calls all-in $65.5</font>.
Uncalled bets: $18.65 returned to Hero.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($204.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $204.5)


River: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($204.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $204.5)


Results:
Final pot: $204.5
<font color="#ffffff">CO showed Ah As</font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed Kh Kc</font>

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

don't get fancy OOP, just 4bet.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

looks good
pretty standard flop to get stacked by AA on

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

pushing and PSR all depend on how you plan to play other hands you're going to 4bet with and how light you think he looks you up

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

That turn was just sick [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

If you flatcall preflop, utg is NEVER folding closing the action getting almost 4:1 immediate odds. I don't know where this "if utg comes along, it's less likely that an ace will flop" thinking started, but... seriously.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

id check raise the flop (or just check call)

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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id check raise the flop (or just check call)

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No way. Not after I 4-bet it. Lead/push is the only play IMO.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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though if UTG comes along, then the chances of an A flopping are greatly diminished

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could you please elaborate. i do not understand this what so ever.

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AIUI if UTG tags along it's quite likely he holds an Ace and so there is less chance that an Ace hits the flop if there are only 3 left in the deck.

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i disagree with this statement a lot and think people ranges are heavily skewed towards pocketpairs when they put a lot of $ in preflop rather than Ax

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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id check raise the flop (or just check call)

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No way. Not after I 4-bet it. Lead/push is the only play IMO.

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Why? Because you would push AK? Because you are protecting against an A?

TBH I doubt it matters much. Villain is likely good enough to know that he wasn't calling for set value, so I doubt QQ folds (if he calls preflop with it).

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

I don't ever call here.

I make it $35 to go, and try to get it all-in. I think just shoving is also ok.

By flat-calling, UTG will call everytime, getting great odds and closing the action.

I DO NOT want to lose my stack to UTG's 77 (or whatever) because I let him hang around and flop a set on what looked liked a harmless flop.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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id check raise the flop (or just check call)

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No way. Not after I 4-bet it. Lead/push is the only play IMO.

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someone might have got to it before me but -

if its AA vs KK, the monies are going in no matter what, we know that. The thing is it's so obvious that we have an overpair that we are relying on his ability to stack off with TT+ for our flop shove to be good. which is why if we check, he can say "OMFG AK" and shove which we snap call.

especially if he is solid - and capable of folding QQ on the flop - we can at least try to check it down to the river and "OMG BLUFF W AK" . i think it's the only way we can get any more money in, unless its a cooler for one of us.

why do you disagree?

fwiw, im hardly ever in this situation bc im in the "i almost never fourbet" camp.

Re: Simple KK 4-betting Question
 

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fwiw, im hardly ever in this situation bc im in the "i almost never fourbet" camp.

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I'm usually in this camp too, but not when the pot is multi-way.

Announcing that you have a huge hand is not as bad as potentially getting stacked by a hand that never should have been allowed to see a flop, IMO.