Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

Villain is 48/23/1.4 42 over 368

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $8/$16
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

He had (in white) <font color="white">K9o</font>

A short time later

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $8/$16
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets intending to fold</font>

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

If this guy is really laggy then I am a bit surprised that he didn't bet the turn in hand #1. He clearly likes to show down a lot though, so your bet in hand #2 is pretty good IMO as he will likely pay you off with a 5 and 8 or a small PP. Also, I think a heart draw or an Ace is pretty unlikely given that he didn't 3-bet PF or raise anywhere else.

Off topic - I think that against some players the way villain played hand #1 is not terrible. Probably not so good against you though.

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

c/c river in hand 1.. unless you know he checks behind a lot a swell

hand 2 I check behind 2hearts/a/q/j+higher kicker all have us beat, we dont have a strong hand to valuebet here

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

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hand 2 I check behind 2hearts/a/q/j+higher kicker all have us beat, we dont have a strong hand to valuebet here

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I disagree. We don't need a strong value bet, all we need is a value bet. Villian has already shown down trash once, he is in the big blind and will call any 8, any 5, and a lot of little pairs. With hero raising preflop and betting on a river ace, I don't think he'll get bluff raised off a better hand often since I think most people will be expecting hero to call a river raise. I think its a thin value bet, but with the previous hand, I think there is value there.

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

I didn't realize that we were supposed to comment on hand #1, but I think that it's a pretty clear b/f as this is an unpaired A looking to pull off a turn "value check" very frequently.

hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

the river bet in hand 2 is definately +EV, he's already shown he calls very lightly.

in hand 1 I think you should either c/r the flop or c/c the flop and lead the turn. you're most likely ahead, and with such a ragged board he must realise you probably have a made hand when you call and will check behind his unmade hands on the turn.

Re: hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

I like the river bet in hand 1. Hand 2, I'd check behind. If he was planning to call down, he's going to have trouble putting you on a hand he's ahead of. So I think there's less value in a bet than if the river card wasn't an ace.

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Off topic - I think that against some players the way villain played hand #1 is not terrible. Probably not so good against you though.

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meh There's little chance he's ahead after almost anyone calls that flop.

Re: hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

dude, he called w/ king high just a few hands ago. why would you not bet for value.

hand 1) the line is too passive for my tastes. I agree with the river bet.

Re: hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1) the line is too passive for my tastes. I agree with the river bet.

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You c/r the flop and he 3-bets. Fold? How about the turn donk, it's a b/f?

Re: hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

[ QUOTE ]
You c/r the flop and he 3-bets. Fold?

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Obviously

[ QUOTE ]
How about the turn donk, it's a b/f?


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It wouldn't be a bet/call


flop donk &gt; preflop 3-bet &gt; flop fold &gt; flop peel

The reason I prefer a flop fold over a peel is because I think this villain will bet the turn most of the time. You can't call most turns so that peel is worthless. In this case, the only reason villain didn't bet the turn is because he thought he had a showdownable hand. If he had garbage, he'd have bet the turn and probably the river too.

flop peel vs. flop fold is pretty close but I wouldn't do either one.

Re: hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

I guess I could by donk/call somewhat. We bet to get him to make a mistake by calling with nothing. I don't like donk/fold though. Donking the flop is encouraging a bluff from a LAG. I don't see much difference pf 3-bet and a c/r. Both turn our hand into a bluff unless he's calling down A/K-high from the flop and not just for one bet on the river. Therefore I'd only take those lines if I thought he was capable of folding too much.

I like the following lines (in no particular order):
-c/c, c/c, play poker
-c/c, b/f, b/f
-b/c If he calls, c/c, c/c. If he raises, calldown good turns/rivers

Re: hand 2 is good, hand 1 I don\'t think so
 

Yea, a LAG will often try to steal again against a donk bet. So I do like the c/c, b/f line. I've been 3-betting preflop, bet, evaluate. I used to do the c/r. But I stopped because then you have to bet again on the turn more often than you would if you had 3-bet preflop. I still do the peel once in a while but never against a LAG. Peel, donk/fold is solid. I've never done it but it might be best against a guy who peels nearly every flop.

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

Hand one is fine.

Hand two isn't a value bet, too many better hands he can have. An ace is quite likely given his line, as are hearts.

Also, he might bluff check/raise, so it's just not worthwhile.

He can also have a better jack.

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand one is fine

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What do you think of playing hand one in one of these ways:

-c/c, b/f, b/f
-b/c If he calls, c/c, c/c. If he raises, calldown good turns/rivers

Re: Reading too much; Couple hands vs. LAG
 

Hand 2 seems close and I'd bet if he never bluff check/raises, but I think the chance of that makes it a check.