Chris Ferguson times 64
 

you move to India or ThailanD. you look for high IQ 14 year old Magic the Gathering honor student computer whiz kids who have to beg for food in the streets to help feed their familieS. i don't know what the child labor laws are in those places but if 14 year olds are allowed to work then you probably would have no problemS.

you teach them the method that Chris Ferguson claims he used to turn $1 into 20 Grand (or as an alternative Ed Miller's shortstack strategy in his GSIH booK). you open accounts in 8 poker siteS. you assign two of these kids to each of these sites and make them play 4 tables a piece (two monitors per site, two "employees" per site) in a 24/7 non-stop marathon rotatioN.

let's take a look at the matH: 8 sites times 8 tables equals 64 tableS. you add the fact that you are playing 24/7 nonstop and you have a moneymachine on your handS.

i'm sure rent is cheap in those placeS. what you want to have is a poker "trading flooR". you pay the kids $30 a month which I'm sure is a fortune for them and their familieS.

i'm surprised that with some 80,000 members that this idea has never been floated here in two plus twO. there is a serious lack of creativity here, imO.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

There is a serious lack of stupidity until this thread.


Fraud would be so easy. I have a friend make a site or find someone to facilitate. Spew 10k to them in one day and disappear. Boom, 28 years of work for a little fraud.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

Poker sweatshop?

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

I think I have seen this idea before. Its awful. If these kids are smart enough to beat poker, then they are going to be smart enough to leave you as soon as they know they are winning players.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

A better idea is one of those MMORPGs where if you get a bunch of gamers to play on your accounts they will accumulate a ton of crap for you to sell. I think I read somewhere that minimum wage in one of those virtual worlds was somewhere around $3 - $4/hour.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

max,

there are some barriers for these kids to bypass. things like setting up bank accounts and/or credit cards to deposit with. then while they're making a wage from you, how many of them will actually save up their wages just so they can risk their own capital to play poker. A $50 deposit can be anywhere between a week to a month's worth of wages to some of these people.

the idea has merit but only if the owner is able to datamine the hand histories to spot cheating. this has to be done by a competent manager with the help of the database software.

another concern is bandwidth and power. if the enterprise is big enough then having running a UPS and a backup generator might be valuable. you'll probably need to pay for a security guard too round the clock to safeguard against theft and whatnot. but luckily that's not terribly expensive since labor is v. cheap.

even at some very low stakes games ($25nl) you can probably make it work paying someone $5/hr for 8 hour shift and do 3 shifts/day.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

Skip the slave labor, and just write a bot. Ed Miller says he's seen a bot successfully execute his strategy.

Assuming you use live labor, you're going to have a ton of up-front cost. You have to hire a bunch of kids, train them, filter out the ones who aren't capable of executing, pay them enough that the smart ones don't quit, and etc.

Assuming any are able to play profitably (90% will fail, if they're like the broad base of players worldwide) then you have to pay them enough that they don't quit and go out on their own once they realize that they have the skills to play profitably.

Who's going to manage this moneymachine of yours that's running 24/7? You, I assume, need to sleep sometimes.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

i'd go straight to hiring recent statistics/math graduates at countries like india or the philippines versus hiring 'some kids'

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

but the "barriers" that you mentioned to maxtower won't be therE. how about ex-professors of math and statistics who may need extra income in addition to their retirement incomE? aren't they unemployable beyond a certain age in these countrieS? take a professor friend of my Dad's in the philippineS. he said he only made 300 USD per month as a professoR. i assume he makes less on his pensioN.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

the barriers are still there for say some 19 yr old filipino kid with no savings spending all his wages on just his living expenses such as car/rent/food/entertainment/clothes/etc. he might not have a reliable connection at home or even have access to a computer. if he can go to an internet cafe then he incurs an hourly cost plus he has to make sure he can install programs on computers he doesn't own. a lot of what we take for granted here isn't very easy to procure in some areas of the world. if you can provide a good work environment (free food, good office equipment, frequent breaks, air conditioning, etc.) then you can increase employee loyalty even further.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]

Assuming any are able to play profitably (90% will fail, if they're like the broad base of players worldwide) then you have to pay them enough that they don't quit and go out on their own once they realize that they have the skills to play profitably.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just OOC...
Are they gonna play 10/20 on their own making $30/month?

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

This gotta be the stupidest idea ever. Why not just use the money that you woulda bank rolled "some kids" and play higher stakes on your own. Some people are just so lazy ...sheesh

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just use the money that you woulda bank rolled and play higher stakes on your own

[/ QUOTE ]

because you can lower variance this way.

[ QUOTE ]
Some people are just so lazy

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't exactly easy to pull off. having the right safeguards in place so that you aren't bleeding money by your own employees scamming you plus the other headaches caused by running your own business will make this difficult to execute

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

How does letting some kids from another country play low stakes lower your variance? I honestly don't think this would work.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm surprised that with some 80,000 members that this idea has never been floated here in two plus twO. there is a serious lack of creativity here, imO3.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not suprsied that with 80,000 members that there is one dumb enough to post this idea.

Problems:
1) I'm pretty sure internet gambling is illegal for anybody under 18 in most countries.
2) We have extradition treaties with most countries.
3) I don't want to know what a prison in Thialand looks like.

4) In most countries where the poor 14-year-olds have the basics to master a poker strategy, they will have better oppertunities than your slave labor idea. And even in the poorest African countries, there are often black market oppertunities. Those Nigeria scam emails are very profitable.

5) Even if 4) does not hold, these kids are smart. They will pool their money and start a team on their own.

6) $30/month is not a fortune in most places, especially not those with where poor 14 year olds have an education. $1/day is half the world poverty line of $2/day.

7) They could easily donk away your money to their friends.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

kajun,

how hard do you think training recent stats/math grads to multitable a game like 50nl would be and beat it for 3ptbb/100?

with a group of 5 employees playing 6 tables at 3 8 hour shifts, you're looking 60k hands/day. with 3ptbb/100 you're looking to gross 1800/day. labor costs would be at $600 for the regular employees then add in another $200 for some trusted managers. that still leaves you with $1k/day to pay out security/maintenance/rent/utilities/cable/plus a host of other expenses. even if these extra expenses work out to $500/day (unlikely) you're still making $15k/month. start up costs are computer equipment and the time to research all the requirements for starting a business in that foreign country.

for a country like the philippines, minimum wage is at $10/day vs $40/day you'd be paying the players. sure they can start up their own accounts but first they'll have to go buy a computer and hope to get a place with good electricity and access to high speed dedicated internet. then they have to get a bankroll going. those costs are a huge disincentive for them since they're getting 4x the minimum wage already with no risk.

but like i said there are other issues that i'd be more concerned about, namely that your players start chip dumping to other people that they know.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

ortom,

problems 1-3 are irrelevant for countries where internet gaming is legal

4 is untrue. lots of smart people in these countries do not have opportunities to make the type of wages you offer

5 while you may have a point here, it will still take them some time to come up with the cashflow to start their own enterprise. employee turnover is just another cost of doing business. there are plenty of potential employees out there.

6 the model i outlined above differs from the OP in that i'd provide a better economic incentive for the employees (roughly 4x the min wage)

7 very true. to address this you'd need to have lots of database scripts to help you weed out the obvious chip dumping plus hire very trusted people to manage the enterprise for you for 3 shifts a day (your managers). the good part is, you don't need to catch all of the collusion to still be profitable.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
the model i outlined above differs from the OP in that i'd provide a better economic incentive for the employees (roughly 4x the min wage)

[/ QUOTE ]

if you hire young people (assuming local labor laws make it legal to do so) from families destitute enough to sell their daughters to pimps and let their sons beg on the streets to supplement family income, then you won't really need to spend that much on wageS. the key is to keep the families (whose head of household only has less than grade one education) happY. in essence, you hire the family not just the "employeE".

you shouldn't limit the pay incentives to moneY. random free bags of rice (sometimes pork and beans, and sardines) for Mom and Dad from time to time, free ruler, pencil boxes, erasers, and crayons for sister, cheap made in China toys (the kinds sold at 99 cent only stores in the US) for little brother, 4 hours free play at the company's used Nintendo 64 and Sega per week for the player, etC. by doing these in addition to the 30 bucks/per month that you pay the employee, you can gain a lot of loyalty at minimum cosT. plus, you will be helping the community by making a lot of people smile (an unexpected pork and beans delivered by you to the home just when the family is about to begin eating rice with water and salt for dinner would easily do this and would even make them feel a great debt of gratitude towards yoU).

you really have to learn to be more creative than just merely connecting employee satisfaction with higher wageS. you can gain as much loyalty with cheap perks for the entire family not just the employeE.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

john, why would i want to hire malnutritioned kids who might have a hard time comprehending certain concepts. i'd like to have quality employees. it is much easier to find them from a pool of recent grads or current students at a university.

plus, not all of the incentives i'd offer would be monetary. spending money for good office equipment, paying extra for air conditioning, etc. is part of it.

[ QUOTE ]
you really have to learn to be more creative than just merely connecting employee satisfaction with higher wageS. you can gain as much loyalty with cheap perks for the entire family not just the employeE.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to balance the free bags of rice and salaries though. cmon now, you're telling me that a few bags of rice and some beef will really be a lot more fulfilling than offering 4 times the min wage? especially in a country where many of the inhabitants in the rural areas don't even get the minimum wage due to lax enforcement on labor laws?

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

John,

Your posts just get dumber and dumber. You really think some kid begging on the street could even grasp the concepts needed to play poker? Instead of looking for ways to take advantage of people why dont you think of something genuine.

Free bags of rice for employees? Not only are you a moron you are an ignorant son of a bitch. One these kids in Thailand would slit your throat in a heart beat. Hopefully sooner then later so nobody has to read your [censored] posts anymore

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

I had this idea last yr but I was gonna use local HS kids. I forget how I was gonna deal with the threat of them ditching me once they became winners but I had a solid solution in mind.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had this idea last yr but I was gonna use local HS kids. I forget how I was gonna deal with the threat of them ditching me once they became winners but I had a solid solution in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

why didn't you do it?

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had this idea last yr but I was gonna use local HS kids. I forget how I was gonna deal with the threat of them ditching me once they became winners but I had a solid solution in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

why didn't you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had planned to do it in my school's computer lab(s) but when I inquired about renting it after hours they gut very suspicious.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

Don't pay a flat rate. Give the kids incentive. You will split their winnings with them, 50-50. This gives them incentive to play well, while at the same time they will feel like they are being treated fairly (not as slave labor) and will be loyal and stay with you as a partner.

It is better to take a 50% (or perhaps less) cut forever, than a 90% cut for only a few months.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
You will split their winnings with them, 50-50. This gives them incentive to play well, while at the same time they will feel like they are being treated fairly (not as slave labor) and will be loyal and stay with you as a partner.

[/ QUOTE ]

loL your idea will insure that they will leave you in just a couple of monthS. the goal is to keep them DEPENDENT on you NOT loyal to yoU. this is done by underpaying them and overworking them while on the surface making them feel special by randomly giving their families surprise gifts of rice, crayons for the kids, and canned sardines which to them are luxurieS. in China, workers are happy having not to think of their next meal and whether or not they will have a bed to sleep in at nighT. their standards are already loW. keep it therE.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You will split their winnings with them, 50-50. This gives them incentive to play well, while at the same time they will feel like they are being treated fairly (not as slave labor) and will be loyal and stay with you as a partner.

[/ QUOTE ]

loL your idea will insure that they will leave you in just a couple of monthS. the goal is to keep them DEPENDENT on you NOT loyal to yoU. this is done by underpaying them and overworking them while on the surface making them feel special by randomly giving their families surprise gifts of rice, crayons for the kids, and canned sardines which to them are luxurieS. in China, workers are happy having not to think of their next meal and whether or not they will have a bed to sleep in at nighT. their standards are already loW. keep it therE.

[/ QUOTE ]

John Rwanda is a very bad poster.

Also, WTF is up with the way you capatalize the last letter in every sentence??? Some sort of lame joke?

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

Since you obviously have no desire to bring any sort of value to society, which is how most successful business owners got wealthy, and since you don't seem to be constrained by any moral or ethical issues - why don't you just cut to the chase and figure out a way to hustle old ladys out of their life savings?

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since you obviously have no desire to bring any sort of value to society

[/ QUOTE ]

visualize a small third world town in which the children don't even have any access to an old AtarI. in fact, these children only play with pebbles on the side of the roaD. by rewarding them with free play time at your Sega Genesis station as a bonus for having made the final table of the sunday million, you have just increased the quality of their experiencE. by giving a few occasional half a dozen cans of corned beef to a family that only eats dried fish and rice, you have increased the quality of life in some waY. by buying crayons for the kid brother or sister (who only used charcoal to draw) you have improve quality of lifE.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you obviously have no desire to bring any sort of value to society

[/ QUOTE ]

visualize a small third world town in which the children don't even have any access to an old AtarI. in fact, these children only play with pebbles on the side of the roaD. by rewarding them with free play time at your Sega Genesis station as a bonus for having made the final table of the sunday million, you have just increased the quality of their experiencE. by giving a few occasional half a dozen cans of corned beef to a family that only eats dried fish and rice, you have increased the quality of life in some waY. by buying crayons for the kid brother or sister (who only used charcoal to draw) you have improve quality of lifE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Robinhood,
I apologize for missing your noble purpose.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you obviously have no desire to bring any sort of value to society

[/ QUOTE ]

visualize a small third world town in which the children don't even have any access to an old AtarI. in fact, these children only play with pebbles on the side of the roaD. by rewarding them with free play time at your Sega Genesis station as a bonus for having made the final table of the sunday million, you have just increased the quality of their experiencE. by giving a few occasional half a dozen cans of corned beef to a family that only eats dried fish and rice, you have increased the quality of life in some waY. by buying crayons for the kid brother or sister (who only used charcoal to draw) you have improve quality of lifE.

[/ QUOTE ]

their quality of life would be better improved by raising their wages so that they know they are guaranteed a certain amount of income and aren't beholden to you to give gifts of canned spam and a bucket of rice every month or so.

as someone who has lived in a 3rd world country, i feel that i'm qualified to call you a despicable human being.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

Worst thread ever.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

you're not the only one who has been to a third world countrY. i've been in the Phillipines and we had a one hour stop over in Thailand before thaT. It was a place called Cebu where our friend had six maidS. we stayed there for a week and i got a good feel for the country as a resulT. anyway, i gave one of the maids a steak and she didn't eat iT. she'd rather have sardines which to her was high clasS. she'd never been to a mall her whole life and refused to go in once her boss brought her there to watch his kidS.

what i'm getting at is that if the going cab fare from the Los Angeles International Airport to Pasadena is $40 you don't pay them $100 just because your driver looks like he is starving to deatH. the going rate is the going ratE.

getting back to that maid, if she can't appreciate steak then you just give her sardines which would make her more than happY. you have to learn to look at things from the perspective of others and get a sense for what they valuE.

a third world kid who only plays with pebbles in the sidewalk would think greatly of a Sega Genesis happy hour as a bonus for doing well in a guaranteed tourneY.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

John,

I am filipino. I lived in the philippines. This isn't a one hour stop for me.

If you really believe that malnutritioned teens will make great employees just because you give them a can of sardines then who am i to disabuse you of those thoughts.

But anyways I'm sure your business plan has merit and you will make millions.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

This has been discussed before but in the form of a poker school. John, the people intelligent enough to do this are already using bots. Stop acting like you have any idea of how to run any type of business. It doesn't matter where in the world a person lives, they are human beings and they deserve respect. You're a despicble fool.

My $0.02

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

now I'm not going to post about wether the business would work or anything. But really, is giving people a job when they have no job a bad thing? When you people talk about living in Thailand or the Phillipines where did you live? How did you live? When I lived in Thailand I eat and hanged out w/ people who worked hard jobs for no $. You think they wouldn't love to sit in front of a computer in an AC room & get paid more than the current job they had? You're retarded if you think they wouldn't want it.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

Jesse,

My point is that the type of people who he wants to hire and will take the that he's offering, probably will not succeed due to (on average) lower intelligence, bad hygeine and malnutrition. If you think it's easy to find math wiz's on the corner of every street then I think you're in for a shock. We're filipino not chinese. j/k.

I think you'll have a higher chance of success by searching for people who have proven skills geared towards this type of work (stats/math background). Sure you have to pay them more but the resulting EV and shorter training times will pay off dividends imo.

But of course this is all conjecture, does anyone have 100k for me to setup a 20 person lab and a few months worth of expenditures? All the bribes i have to pay up you know...

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

i met a professor in the Philippines who makes $400/montH. he said most jobs there require a person to be under 35 or they become totally unhireablE. if that's the case then middle aged workers who have been laid off would probably make better workerS. call center people there only make $300/montH. but i think retirees are probably better prospects than kidS. so long as they don't have children who are working who can possibly finance them after they leave yoU.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

why are you still going on about it? why are you telling us? go do it already.

Re: Chris Ferguson times 64
 

i'm looking for as many arguments against it as possiblE.