880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

Other dude in the hand is whom i view "the table fish". He is 30/11/0.5 over 144 hands, not awful, but not great. I know i got the $$ but does anyone have any advice as to any other way to play it? I went for the flop CR but the PFR checked behind(doh). The turn comes an Ace so i figure he now has a pair and will bet if checked to again, thats the reasoning for checking the turn.


FullTiltPoker Game #1154392839: Table Edgewood (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:12:04 ET - 2006/10/26
Seat 1: justpoker69 ($436.60)
Seat 2: CABOWABO23 ($93.20), is sitting out
Seat 3: HeyImGay ($101.50)
Seat 4: nanochip ($97)
Seat 5: SuburbanSpade ($141.05)
Seat 6: jimmyhat1000 ($437.30)
jimmyhat1000 posts the small blind of $0.50
justpoker69 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jimmyhat1000 [8c 8h]
HeyImGay raises to $4
nanochip folds
SuburbanSpade folds
jimmyhat1000 calls $3.50
justpoker69 calls $3
*** FLOP *** [Th 3s 8s]
jimmyhat1000 checks
justpoker69 checks
HeyImGay checks
*** TURN *** [Th 3s 8s] [Ad]
jimmyhat1000 checks
justpoker69 checks
HeyImGay bets $6
jimmyhat1000 raises to $30
justpoker69 calls $30
HeyImGay folds
*** RIVER *** [Th 3s 8s Ad] [Ts]
jimmyhat1000 checks
justpoker69 bets $209
jimmyhat1000 raises to $403.30, and is all in
justpoker69 calls $193.60, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $0.70 returned to jimmyhat1000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jimmyhat1000 shows [8c 8h] (a full house, Eights full of Tens)
justpoker69 mucks
jimmyhat1000 wins the pot ($880.20) with a full house, Eights full of Tens
justpoker69 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $883.20 | Rake $3
Board: [Th 3s 8s Ad Ts]
Seat 1: justpoker69 (big blind) mucked [3c 3d] - a full house, Threes full of Tens
Seat 2: CABOWABO23 is sitting out
Seat 3: HeyImGay folded on the Turn
Seat 4: nanochip didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: SuburbanSpade (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: jimmyhat1000 (small blind) showed [8c 8h] and won ($880.20) with a full house, Eights full of Tens

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $101.50
CO: $97
Button: $141.05
PLEASE USE A CONVERTER: $437.30
BB: $436.60

Pre-flop: (5 players) PLEASE USE A CONVERTER is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, PLEASE USE A CONVERTER calls, BB calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($12, 3 players)
PLEASE USE A CONVERTER checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($12, 3 players)
PLEASE USE A CONVERTER checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">PLEASE USE A CONVERTER raises to $30</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($78, 2 players)
PLEASE USE A CONVERTER checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $209</font>, <font color="#cc0000">PLEASE USE A CONVERTER raises all-in $403.3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB calls all-in $193.6</font>.
Uncalled bets: $0.7 returned to PLEASE USE A CONVERTER.

Results:
Final pot: $883.2



[/ QUOTE ]

PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE RESULTS

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

Leading the turn isn't bad either. You'll end up getting raised by a ton of Ax hands and you can then 3bet or call and donk the river. I doubt you're losing too much value by leading instead of c/ring the turn (which implies much more strength).

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

you lose value by not leading flop.

a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] falling will often kill your action

there's also str8 draws

draws will only pay you off, if there's more streets to come..... once they missed, they fold..... so start early

also, many other hands call flop lead.... and hopefully you get rr-ed by pfr-er w AT or overpair

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

bet flop

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

Before I saw results, I put him on the nut flush...I dont mind (read: like it alot) your play, but sometimes he is going to have a donked FH.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

bet the flop

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

sorry about converter problems (i am a newbie fish). the main part of the hand i wanted advice on was the river play. After the fish cold calls the turn c/raise i figured he had the nut flush draw, or maybe cause hes a fish just an Ace. What does everyone do on the river given stack sizes?? I can value bet and hope to get called by an Ace but if i bet say $50 he MIGHT only just call with a flush cause we are so deep. But if i check he bets any flush and maybe an Ace and i get to make a decent sized check raise which he might call, if anyone bets the river why and if anyone checks the river for reasons other than ive stated why, cheers.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

no your check with an intent to raise all-in is good. a bet probably doesn't get called by any hand that he wouldn't bet himself when checked to.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before I saw results, I put him on the nut flush...I dont mind (read: like it alot) your play, but sometimes he is going to have a donked FH.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has played his hand exactly like a passive player plays his Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] He never checks that behind and cant put you on a FH.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

so going for the river c/raise is correct here? btw, i have had explained to me reasons for checking/betting i should have done on prior streets to the river by a dude who is teaching me. I'm a fish i know:(

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

yeah your river c/raise is perfecto

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

the river c/r is OK, the rest of the hand sucks though. Terribly.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

OMG.....PLZ DONT C/R THE RIVER!!!!

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

why not C/R river?

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
OMG.....PLZ DONT C/R THE RIVER!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

open shove?

I think my advice must be terrible when im high. You hate on everything i say when im blazed D [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
why not C/R river?

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c he checks behind a lot that calls a vb

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG.....PLZ DONT C/R THE RIVER!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

open shove?

I think my advice must be terrible when im high. You hate on everything i say when im blazed D [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? we're 400BBs deep, open shoving is TERRIBLE. Just pot it or bet maybe 3/4 pot or whatever you think he'll raise with a flush

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

he NEVER checks a flush behind, I think he may call a value bet(1/2 pot at best) if all he has in as Ace but if we check he DEF. bets a flush then i get to shove over the top. I think being 400bbs deep makes a CRAI or at least a big check raise the right play. He never checks a flush behind but he may just call a 3/4 pot bet with a flush cause were so deep. keep in mind i want his whole stack, not 1/4 of it

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
he NEVER checks a flush behind, I think he may call a value bet(1/2 pot at best) if all he has in as Ace but if we check he DEF. bets a flush then i get to shove over the top. I think being 400bbs deep makes a CRAI or at least a big check raise the right play. He never checks a flush behind but he may just call a 3/4 pot bet with a flush cause were so deep. keep in mind i want his whole stack, not 1/4 of it

[/ QUOTE ]

uh yeah, but if he just calls a vb with a flush, he also folds to a C/R

and you're missing out on so much value from Aces its not true

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
keep in mind i want his whole stack, not 1/4 of it

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not, or you wouldn't have tried to get in 6x pot on one street.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

reference: john murphy (might have butchered his name, it's been a while since i watched the video) vs Josh Arieh, WSOP 2004.
had murphy checked, he would have probably stacked arieh. check-raise&gt;lead

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
reference: john murphy (might have butchered his name, it's been a while since i watched the video) vs Josh Arieh, WSOP 2004.
had murphy checked, he would have probably stacked arieh. check-raise&gt;lead

[/ QUOTE ]

what are the details of the hand?

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
keep in mind i want his whole stack, not 1/4 of it

[/ QUOTE ]

unless he's super retarded, you're never getting his whole stack, esp not with a C/R (he should be folding 33 to a river c/r like always).

And its not about getting his stack, its about maximising your EV

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

Don't remember exactly but Murphy had a set and was playing it somewhat passively. Arieh made a flush on the river. Murphy led with a big bet. Arieh thought for a pretty long time said something like I can't believe I'm folding this hand and then he folded.

That was a tournament though of course.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

murphy made a fullhouse and bet out big, arieh folded his flush, but in a case when you put your opponent on a draw that hits but also gives you a better hand, i prefer checking to him when you know he'll bet so you can raise compared to leading and maybe only getting that one bet. i dont think villain is EVEr checking behind hear except super-weak aces

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

I'm not sure of preflop action. Murphy flopped bottom set on a 2 heart board, Arieh had Kxhh. Murphy bet and Arieh called. Turn was a blank. Murphy bet and Arieh called. River was a heart but paired the board. Murphy moved in and Arieh folded.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

i realised i butchered the flop and turn but if somehow that could be forgotten(please, flop + turn play = horrible sin) and remembering the fact that this guy is the generic "table fish" i think check raising this river is the best way to maximise EV. against a TAG/solid regular/2+2er with a brain check raisinf prob never gets called but against a "table fish" is it not the right thing to do?

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

guys, tell me 1 hand that c/r river is better than leading it?

Aces (which make up like 50% of his range), obv leading is better. Giving ure turn c/r and what the river card is, he's checking behind every ace

Ditto any ten, and a ten is DEF not calling a river C/R

and if he has a flush/33, he either wants to get AI or not, so either he folds to our C/R or he raises our lead, you can't have it both ways. And either way, we either win about a PSB on the river or we win his stack, makes no difference

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

I think a good flush in the hands of a donkey (which villain apparently is) pays off the CR for sure. I actually think the river CR is hot, but the rest of the hand is awful. I lead the flop like always.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

this is all well and good, but as i said in bbv, we're missing the awesomeness of seat 3's name.

as played this was pretty bad, and you were really lucky to be ahead when getting it in this deep. Vs most solid players sticking it in this deep with the strength of hand you have this cold on the river = death

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

just for notes - this hand is one i had against the guy in my first few orbits at the table. I dont know if it makes him a great player or a fish but it may be relevant in deciding wether or not getting AI on this river is a good idea,

http://www.pokerhand.org/?578448

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

i dont like this because you failed to build a pot. The pot only got big on the river because he had a set and you suck at poker if you do not get all of his money in a set over set situation. Lead flop plz

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
reference: john murphy (might have butchered his name, it's been a while since i watched the video) vs Josh Arieh, WSOP 2004.
had murphy checked, he would have probably stacked arieh. check-raise&gt;lead

[/ QUOTE ]

looooooooooooooool at this logic

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

its an example im not the first person to use one
i mentioned it because it illustrates what i had already mentioned
the c-r&gt;lead at the end is a joke, obviously it's not that cut and dry but i still prefer check-raise

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

The only street that is played ok is pre-flop. Lead the flop, you have a monster hand with deep stacks you need to build the pot and protect against draws. Lead the turn, same reason. Lead the river, villain seems pretty passive he's likely checking behind alot.

OP, you got the $$ only because your opponent is mentally defective.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
just for notes - this hand is one i had against the guy in my first few orbits at the table. I dont know if it makes him a great player or a fish but it may be relevant in deciding wether or not getting AI on this river is a good idea,

http://www.pokerhand.org/?578448

[/ QUOTE ]

based on this info i would like to lead all streets. this doofus is paying you off with nothing

also since we're very deep a preflop repop is my fav line

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

dude who stacked off wasnt the pre flop raiser, he was bb who also smoother pre

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

" keep in mind i want his whole stack, not 1/4 of it "

The idea it to maximise your wins and and minimise your losses, not, "I want it all". You risked getting nothing in the hopes that some fool would hand you all of his chips. Also, if you've got someone who is going to give you his stack, then he's going to do it no matter what you do. Bet that river and you'll win the max in the long run.

Re: 880bb pot at 100nl - i know i got the $$, but advice
 

River: T ($78, 2 players)
PLEASE USE A CONVERTER checks, BB bets $209, PLEASE USE A CONVERTER raises all-in $403.3, BB calls all-in $193.6.

this just is pure retarded. guy bets 209 into 78. and if he did have a flush its one of the worst ways to play it. unless hes trying to disguise this as a bluff. but when he got raised, he has to know hes dead unless hes that bad.

this would be a payoff for me if i called this.