Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

So Im playing at Paradise a full 0.5/1 table last night. I raise K7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] out of CO. Weak Button cold calls and BB calls.

Reads: BB is a 45/22 lag semi tard over a few hundred hands. Not a crazy mofo lag but definitely quite willing to try and push people around but also not the type to go balls to the wall when faced with aggro. In previous sessions BB attacked my blind mercilessly from 3 seats to my right. BB will pump a draw and is a bet if checked to type. BB also is a fan of FPS. No read given on button because he folds the flop.

Villian's read on me: If BB has been paying attention he/she will have me pegged as being tight and unlike most paradise players probably has picked up on the fact my fold button does not gather dust like most of the stations there. Simply put, when I 3bet or raise I get respect from BB (ie wont cap with crap). I doubt BB has been me showdown a bluff yet.

Anywho, back to the hand.

flop comes monotone [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s. all 10s or lower and not really connected (assume something like 10,6,4 or similar) and no 7.

BB checks, I continuation-bet, button folds, BB checkraises, I 3bet, villian folds

Now, it worked this time and gave me a rush becuase I got away with something a little crazy....do you think I pushed the envelope?

bonus question: if BB calls the 3 bet and turn is does not help Hero but is also a likely blank for villian, whats your turn line?

Berate away. I still feel icky.


ozi

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

Like it.

This is such an obvious spot for a bluff from the LAG, it has to be worth playing back at him.

If he calls and then leads the turn, I'm folding. If he checks, I have a very difficult decision.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

Seems fine to me. You are taking a stand against a maniac who you rightly think might not have very much. If he calls the flop I'd bet the turn and expect a fold enough times to make it profitable. If he calls the turn I'd just check behind on the river though.

It feels good to bluff a bluffer doesn't it?

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

Against the type of player you describe, I think the play works very, very well in the right circumstances. I have done this once or twice against similar overly aggressive types, but it isn't something I would do with regularity.

As for your bonus question, if a non-spade blank falls on the turn, and Villain checks to Hero, I think the same bet/3bet line would be best, but the 3bet would be spewing against certain opponents (good vs. not-good thinking).

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

It's okay. I don't mind playing back every now and then. But if you show down junk, be ready to back way off for a while.

BTW - You can sometimes check behind on the flop and raise the turn donk against this sort of player. This mimics a fishy slowplay and they'll give you credit for it very often.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

Ozi & all,

what's your opinion on how fast one should click the RAISE button in this situation?

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

As long as you don't get addicted to making moves like that they are perfectly legitimate moves to make.

The thing about making complicated bluffs is making sure your back story matches your moves.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

The raise button timing question: Let's put it this way, if someone has loaded the autobet button what do you do normally?

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How fast should you press

[/ QUOTE ]
Well… it depends. Speed of a bet can show so many things… that partial information thing again.

Typically, a fast raise means a strong/made hand, but there are players I’ve seen (.25/.50 level) that will toss that re-raise in as a semi-bluff (ie, holding pocket 9’s on a dry flop).

SO… make it fast if you’re bluffing.

S l o w raises are usually a strong hand trying to look weak. Very dangerous, and I take a note on any player who makes that move.

Slow calls mean he has crap but still has a dream (gutshot, A hi, etc). Value bet them relentlessly as safe cards fall.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

With all the people multitabling out there, I put very little stock in time delay. Although for some reason I delay a bit when I single table. Maybe a contradiction I dunno, but so many people value the read off how long it takes to play a hand. If I delay it can mess up that routine and throw them off a bit.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

I would never do this because there's too many ways for him to have a single pair or a single spade that's gonna stick around for a while.

The risk:reward is out of whack in this small pot.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

I'm with elffaw. I don't think this is even a great situation for a cbet. You knew you were likely to get played back at, and if button called, you would have just been burning money. I like a check so you can see the turn.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The raise button timing question: Let's put it this way, if someone has loaded the autobet button what do you do normally?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh... it does not matter....

I wrote this a while back:
[ QUOTE ]
One last thing I want to comment on, and I have seen it recently at 2p2 as well, is trying to tie bet speed to a player’s hand strength. As I have mentioned in other threads, there are to many outside factors that can be at work here. Latency, connection speed, site performance, etc. can weigh into this heavily. For all I know, the guy might be eating a big-ass bag of Cheetos and I cleaning his hands before he bets!

[/ QUOTE ]
and of course it still applies [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

That came from this thread which has some really good material in it... as well as a good-bye post from Shillx (thankfully it wasn't perm).

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

I always delay before hitting any button (raise, fold, call), even if I know what I'm going to do before my turn I count to 4 in my head then hit the button. I feel it makes you less readable, kind of like always having a serious/blank expression and wearing sunglasses when you're playing live.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

man, button speed means nothing.

a fast click/auto action can mean anything from an impatient player to a 16 tabling monster who autoclicks everything

a slow click can mean anything from latency, to watching porn, to confused.

i would have c-bet. but i think elffaw/wookie make good points.

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

Oz,

This is not the time to make this play. Villain could be pushing with so many hands and not fold. He made a play with air this time. I think you got lucky and tried to justify the outcome as anything but luck (i.e. superior play, reads, villain = lagtard etc....).

If I were Villain, I would make a play like this at you with any PP, flopped pair or any A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] None of which I am folding to a 3 bet.

If villain calls, what are you going to do on the turn when checked into? This hand can get expensive quickly.

LLL

ALso, what ws the point of the PF raise with this guy in the blind that you know is not going to fold and will probably 3 bet you PF with any 2?

LLL

Re: Stupidity or genius against a Lag I have a read on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So Im playing at Paradise a full 0.5/1 table last night. I raise K7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] out of CO. Weak Button cold calls and BB calls.

Reads: BB is a 45/22 lag semi tard over a few hundred hands. Not a crazy mofo lag but definitely quite willing to try and push people around but also not the type to go balls to the wall when faced with aggro. In previous sessions BB attacked my blind mercilessly from 3 seats to my right. BB will pump a draw and is a bet if checked to type. BB also is a fan of FPS. No read given on button because he folds the flop.

Villian's read on me: If BB has been paying attention he/she will have me pegged as being tight and unlike most paradise players probably has picked up on the fact my fold button does not gather dust like most of the stations there. Simply put, when I 3bet or raise I get respect from BB (ie wont cap with crap). I doubt BB has been me showdown a bluff yet.

Anywho, back to the hand.

flop comes monotone [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]s. all 10s or lower and not really connected (assume something like 10,6,4 or similar) and no 7.

BB checks, I continuation-bet, button folds, BB checkraises, I 3bet, villian folds

Now, it worked this time and gave me a rush becuase I got away with something a little crazy....do you think I pushed the envelope?

bonus question: if BB calls the 3 bet and turn is does not help Hero but is also a likely blank for villian, whats your turn line?

Berate away. I still feel icky.


ozi

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard.