Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players

I have been involved in quite a few of these types of hands recently and never really know if my line is good.

No reads on villain but i'm not so much concerned about his action. I'm more concerned about finding out if its right to raise non nut flush draws out of position or what is the best strategy?

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

&lt;-- new player

I'd not raise on this flop, I'd just call everything down till I hit my card. With only 3 players left after the button folds, I don't think you will get enough pot odds if you raise.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

dont CR the flop after Button folds since you dont want MP3 to get blown away by a BB 3bet...also you wont get a free card often due to being OOP

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

pot is too small and there arnt enough players for this to be a good c/r.

get a couple more in there and its a goer. dont be worried that its not the nut flush draw. with the king out there its second nuts, and you wont often be beaten when you make it.

its close, i would go for it if button called the flop. aussie, i wouldnt worry too much about bb 3-betting and cutting out the field.

a) especially at the micros, not many ppl will fold even for two after calling one on the flop
b) if the bb had something worth 3-betting with a king he probably would have jacked it pf.

i.e. i dont think there are many hands that will 3-bet you here that wouldnt raise pf. probably just the low sets and random 2p hands.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

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its close, i would go for it if button called the flop. aussie, i wouldnt worry too much about bb 3-betting and cutting out the field.

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maybe so but by the time its back our our hero on the flop it is now 3 way so as we all know, its not really for value

also since we have relative position on BB we will be in a much better postion to CR the turn/river if/when we spike the flush

meh, you already agreed the CR aint so flash so ill stop typing...

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

yep, no doubt. either way you look at it, there is no value in a c/r

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

[ QUOTE ]

maybe so but by the time its back our our hero on the flop it is now 3 way so as we all know, its not really for value



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With more callers, I pump smaller flush draws too.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

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With more callers, I pump smaller flush draws too.

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Even out of position?

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

who else doesnt fold the river??

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

honestly the flop c/r is probably a 0.1BB mistake, i would estimate the river fold at being close to a 2.5BB mistake....

thats like 25 times using the numbers i just made up out of my head

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

[ QUOTE ]
honestly the flop c/r is probably a 0.1BB mistake, i would estimate the river fold at being close to a 2.5BB mistake....

thats like 25 times using the numbers i just made up out of my head

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Can you explain the workings behind those numbers please?

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

um... i just made them up....

i consider the flop c/r a very small mistake for many reasons, mainly because on the facts of it you have a draw close to the nuts and probably have at least ~36% equity 3way so putting more bets in can not hurt. it also could possibly add deception and can get more value on later streets if someone has a lower flush and you both hit. basically its not how i play it, i c/c c/c but playing it like this is only a very very small mistake.

on the river your ahead of any busted flush/straight draw (i know the straight is highly unlikely), any PP JJ or below (at least 10% of his range), any 6x, any 2x or even randomness that happens at these levels. I would say you are good roughly 25% of the time here. you fold getting 8:1, so yeah thats like a 2BB mistake imo.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

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I would say you are good roughly 25% of the time here. you fold getting 8:1, so yeah thats like a 2BB mistake imo.

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So let me see if i get this.
Assuming i'm good 25% of the time, for every 4 times i make this bet i'll only win 1 time but as i'm going to win an 8 BB pot i'll earn 8 BB but lose 3 BB for an over all profit of 5BB?

Have i got the profit calculation right?

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

Which flop line is better than check raise? I prefer to just lead out on this flop. I think it helps keep everyone else in to bloat the pot.

Spending 1SB on the flop will help get the pot big enough to give you pot odds to correctly check/call the turn if you miss. That seems better than check/call, which also costs you 1SB, but would leave you having to fold the turn without pot odds to continue.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

lolo i dont know man i made the numbers up... but its a much bigger mistake than the flop c/r imo

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
its close, i would go for it if button called the flop. aussie, i wouldnt worry too much about bb 3-betting and cutting out the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe so but by the time its back our our hero on the flop it is now 3 way so as we all know, its not really for value

also since we have relative position on BB we will be in a much better postion to CR the turn/river if/when we spike the flush

meh, you already agreed the CR aint so flash so ill stop typing...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go for a check raise in that spot.

halpgr: We would have the odds to go for the flush on the turn even if we didn't raise. I'm not sure about your logic either. I wouldn't raise one street without equity just to give me odds on a following street. My raise would either have to be for equity or increase my equity enough by folding others to make it worth it.

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S: I agree with your analysis, but if we assume our Q will be good 25% of the time when we hit, then raising the flop probably isn't -EV.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

A bet is good out of position with 3 potential callers but not a c/r with less having to call two bets.

The check/raise is for a free card but you have to continue more often than not out of position anyways to shut down the flop raiser.

I only do it if I think this guy is a loon and I can check/raise him again on the turn and get him to fold.

I mean it's spew but if you want to go for it go for it.

PS. It works but don't try it against Str8fish unless you are clarvoyent and know your draw is going to hit on the river.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

absolution: whether a decision is + or - ev is not the same as whether it maximises our ev in the hand

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

Bet &gt; c/r here.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

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Bet &gt; c/r here.

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Why?

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

I'm betting out instead. This flop is ragged and someone without a K will probably fold. If I don't get too many callers (&gt;2) I fire again on the turn. I don't think u have an equity edge 3-handed with no OC's. And ur line screams FD.

Edit: The main problem with a CR/check line is that it gives u zero chance of winning UI. The second problem is that u don't have an equity edge. The third problem is that u give ur hand away.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

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This flop is ragged and someone without a K will probably fold.

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I'd only be playing this hand OOP if I'm a blind, and if so I'm betting out about 70% of the time. I would try and drive out the players with 2nd/3rd pair (including small pockets). If somebody raises, then I would call but check-fold on the turn if I don't hit the flush.

But then again, I suck.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'd only be playing this hand OOP if I'm a blind, and if so I'm betting out about 70% of the time. I would try and drive out the players with 2nd/3rd pair (including small pockets). If somebody raises, then I would call but check-fold on the turn if I don't hit the flush.


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If u bet and are raised there will be 8sb in the pot. When u check and villain bets again on the turn, u are getting 5:1 odds. Since the chance of making ur flush is about 4.5:1 against, u have an overlay here and must call. Also u will probably make another bet on the river, making ur implied odds 6:1.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

I'd check and call the flop

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

Not enough has been said about the river fold. You're getting 8:1 on a call. I admit, he probably has a king but does he have a king 87% of the time? I doubt it. He could easily have a busted draw or some other random hand.

Plus he probably puts you on a flush draw - I know anyone who checkraises me on the flop and checks the turn is almost certainly on a flush draw. This is another reason why the flop checkraise isn't great unless you follow up on the turn.

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

i call the river also

bbb

Re: Pumping Non Nut Flush draws - Out of Postion
 

omg why fold when you make a pair of queens. what if hes bluff?