Fun w/ 77
 

Absolute 3/6, 9 handed. No stats and no reads.

Preflop:
Folded to Button who raises, SB calls, The Dude calls in the BB w/ 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Flop: (5.5 SBs) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="blue"> (3 Players) </font>
Checked to Button who bets, SB folds, The Dude calls.

Turn: (3.75 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (2 Players) </font>
What's The Dude's line?

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

i don't get it ...

isn't this a 3bet pre flop or a "call and check raise the flop"

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

I think I'd c/r the flop and go from there.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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i don't get it ...

isn't this a 3bet pre flop or a "call and check raise the flop"

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3betting this preflop isn't ideal given the SB in there. Calling usually lets you play the flop "better" from an FTOP standpoint when SB donks or c/r's the flop.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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i don't get it ...

isn't this a 3bet pre flop or a "call and check raise the flop"

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3betting this preflop isn't ideal given the SB in there. Calling usually lets you play the flop "better" from an FTOP standpoint when SB donks or c/r's the flop.

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[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] ... missed the sb

yeah I call ... but still c/r after sb folds ...

edit: what is FTOP?

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

it's a pretty small pot, so as played I'm inclined to let it go on the turn.

Otherwise I'd donk bet, folding to a raise, and c/c the river.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

i would checkraise and fold to a 3bet.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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i don't get it ...

isn't this a 3bet pre flop or a "call and check raise the flop"

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3betting this preflop isn't ideal given the SB in there. Calling usually lets you play the flop "better" from an FTOP standpoint when SB donks or c/r's the flop.

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[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] ... missed the sb

yeah I call ... but still c/r after sb folds ...

edit: what is FTOP?

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Fundamental Theorem of Poker

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

Turn: (3.75 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
The Dude checks, <font color="red">Button bets</font>, <font color="red">The Dude raises</font>, planning on folding to a 3-bet, and betting the river if called.

I'm thoroughly convinced this line is far superior to putting in a pf 3-bet or flop cr. In this kind of steal situation the flop gets checkraised with all kinds of draws and overcards and complete crap. If my hand were stronger and I didn't mind if Button pushed back, fine, cr the flop. But with 3rd pair, after I put in my raise if he pushes back I have to fold, so I can wait 'till the turn where it's a lot easier to represent a real hand.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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Turn: (3.75 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
The Dude checks, <font color="red">Button bets</font>, <font color="red">The Dude raises</font>, planning on folding to a 3-bet, and betting the river if called.

I'm thoroughly convinced this line is far superior to putting in a pf 3-bet or flop cr. In this kind of steal situation the flop gets checkraised with all kinds of draws and overcards and complete crap. If my hand were stronger and I didn't mind if Button pushed back, fine, cr the flop. But with 3rd pair, after I put in my raise if he pushes back I have to fold, so I can wait 'till the turn where it's a lot easier to represent a real hand.

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luv it. The 8 falling and the follow up CR makes it even more believabe.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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Turn: (3.75 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
The Dude checks, <font color="red">Button bets</font>, <font color="red">The Dude raises</font>, planning on folding to a 3-bet, and betting the river if called.

I'm thoroughly convinced this line is far superior to putting in a pf 3-bet or flop cr. In this kind of steal situation the flop gets checkraised with all kinds of draws and overcards and complete crap. If my hand were stronger and I didn't mind if Button pushed back, fine, cr the flop. But with 3rd pair, after I put in my raise if he pushes back I have to fold, so I can wait 'till the turn where it's a lot easier to represent a real hand.

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I think this might be good ...
I've started playing 6max (1-2, 2-4) in the past couple of weeks ... and the flop check raise is not going over (I guess because it's too 'standard' a line) ...

I do like the strength that this shows, and may even get villian to fold a better hand on occasion

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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luv it. The 8 falling and the follow up CR makes it even more believabe.

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The 8 is perhaps the best turn card I can get that doesn't actually improve my hand/ give me a straight draw, but then again after just about any turn there are more hands for him to worry about, meaning I'm less likely to get played back at by a worse hand.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

Without knowing what chance the turn c/r has of folding a weak J or a hand with an overcard/s I think I would c/c c/c here.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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Turn: (3.75 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
The Dude checks, <font color="red">Button bets</font>, <font color="red">The Dude raises</font>, planning on folding to a 3-bet, and betting the river if called.

I'm thoroughly convinced this line is far superior to putting in a pf 3-bet or flop cr. In this kind of steal situation the flop gets checkraised with all kinds of draws and overcards and complete crap. If my hand were stronger and I didn't mind if Button pushed back, fine, cr the flop. But with 3rd pair, after I put in my raise if he pushes back I have to fold, so I can wait 'till the turn where it's a lot easier to represent a real hand.

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I also like the move like this. And what would you do if T, Q, K or A fell on turn?
Would you still c/r?

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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Turn: (3.75 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
The Dude checks, <font color="red">Button bets</font>, <font color="red">The Dude raises</font>, planning on folding to a 3-bet, and betting the river if called.

I'm thoroughly convinced this line is far superior to putting in a pf 3-bet or flop cr. In this kind of steal situation the flop gets checkraised with all kinds of draws and overcards and complete crap. If my hand were stronger and I didn't mind if Button pushed back, fine, cr the flop. But with 3rd pair, after I put in my raise if he pushes back I have to fold, so I can wait 'till the turn where it's a lot easier to represent a real hand.

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I also like the move like this. And what would you do if T, Q, K or A fell on turn?
Would you still c/r?

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that's the bad thing about not c/r this flop. this is pretty much a gin turn card for 77 besides hitting a set. if any big card came it would be an easy check fold, but if you c/r the flop and lead the turn, villian would have to fold if he has air. if he doesn't have a big card he will take it down on the turn with the continuation bet.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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that's the bad thing about not c/r this flop. this is pretty much a gin turn card for 77 besides hitting a set. if any big card came it would be an easy check fold, but if you c/r the flop and lead the turn, villian would have to fold if he has air. if he doesn't have a big card he will take it down on the turn with the continuation bet.

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I'd rather check-call the flop and donk said turn cards than check-raise and bet. I'm not planning on check-folding any turn card; I'm either check-raising or donking.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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that's the bad thing about not c/r this flop. this is pretty much a gin turn card for 77 besides hitting a set. if any big card came it would be an easy check fold, but if you c/r the flop and lead the turn, villian would have to fold if he has air. if he doesn't have a big card he will take it down on the turn with the continuation bet.

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I'd rather check-call the flop and donk said turn cards than check-raise and bet. I'm not planning on check-folding any turn card; I'm either check-raising or donking.

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this can obv work, but it just kind of seems like FPS to me.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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this can obv work, but it just kind of seems like FPS to me.

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please explain why.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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this can obv work, but it just kind of seems like FPS to me.

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please explain why.

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actually don't worry about it. i don't know how much i'll be around today so i just want to throw this out. you guys need to learn identify situations when betting may be +ev, calling may be -ev, and raising is the highest ev of them all. do ev calcs with and without fold equity. learn to identify how often an opponent would need to fold to make it the best play and start to apply it. it takes work, and practice calculating but you will get a feel for it. that's all you need at the table is a feel for the situation when it comes up.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

Blind defense is definitely an area that I could use some work on. My default line is this situation is to call preflop and then c/r the flop when SB drops out. I'm going to lead the turn if villain doesn't 3-bet. It sounds like a bunch of others default to this line as well. I use the Dude's line from time to time, but it's a variation play for me.

How much of this approach is game/site-specific? I don't play 3/6, and I don't play at Absolute. I'm sure that's a fairly tough game and I can easily imagine villain 3-betting the flop with all sorts of stuff since he's probablys sophisticated enough to know that our c/r could be any pair, any draw, and the occasional resteal.

But in my little games, I'm not sure that villains are generally that sharp. And it's not unheard of for villain to check behind on the turn if I wait to make my move there (that's uncommon, but it happens).

Maybe I should be using this line more often, but I think I'd want a pretty good read first.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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I'd rather check-call the flop and donk said turn cards than check-raise and bet. I'm not planning on check-folding any turn card; I'm either check-raising or donking.

[/ QUOTE ] this can obv work, but it just kind of seems like FPS to me.

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Call it FPS if you'd like, but it accomplishes the same thing as cr'ing the flop and leading the turn, and for less investment. In fact, scratch that. It's more likely to work than cr'ing the flop, since we're less likely to get played back at on the turn. If villain has high cards and gets cr'd on the flop, he may decide to raise his A high on the turn (often taking a free showdown), forcing us to fold our better hand. However, if we check-call then donk, we're much less likely to get raised by a worse hand.

So on top of those advantages, check-calling the flop lets us check-raise safe turn cards, making our play much stronger in villain's eyes.

Obv there are some scenarios you can draw out where this line works out less than perfectly, but overall it is FAR superior to check-raising the flop.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

why raise the turn why not call?

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

because raising the turn is pretty likely to make him fold a better hand.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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because raising the turn is pretty likely to make him fold a better hand.

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ya, sure. Better hand folding about never

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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because raising the turn is pretty likely to make him fold a better hand.

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ya, sure. Better hand folding about never

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You don't think 99 ever folds here? I think it folds a lot.

Re: Fun w/ 77
 

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why raise the turn why not call?

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He will only fold a better hand very rarely, but a good number of hands in his range have many outs against us, and I'd rather him fold his overcards (or pay another bet on the draw) than give him a free shot to outdraw me.