Two Plus Two Newer Archives - Funky river decision

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Funky river decision

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

SB ($50.50)
BB ($28.80)
UTG ($51.95)
MP ($29.55)
CO ($36.80)
Hero ($70.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.5, BB calls $3.50.

Turn: ($11.25) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8.

River: ($27.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $15.3 (All-In), Hero ???

For one I didn't fall into the trap of checking behind on turn and giving him free card. What course of action should I do, he pushed almost instantly. I have less than 20 hands of him, he's 50/17/2 over 15 hands. Haven't seen him do anything completely retarded, but the sample is small.

Call/fold? What about the other parts of the hand?

Re: Funky river decision

what do you mean giving him a free card. this turn bet is spew. by checking we keep the pot size manageable and we wont be put to this decision on the river. a turn bet folds out hands you beat and hands you are losing to come along for the ride

Re: Funky river decision

I fold, i dont see anything that you;re beating that plays this way...you'll see a flush or aces up a lot here

Re: Funky river decision

Insta-calls. This is very often a weird played ace or jack and even more often T6 or J6. You only have to be good 25% of the time. If you get beat by a slowplayed flush or set so be it.

Re: Funky river decision

[ QUOTE ]
what do you mean giving him a free card. this turn bet is spew. by checking we keep the pot size manageable and we wont be put to this decision on the river. a turn bet folds out hands you beat and hands you are losing to come along for the ride

[/ QUOTE ]

Well when I posted pretty much exactly the same kind of hand here, where I had AA, the general line was that I should bet. In this hand, I'm stronger than AA (didn't have FD there). I think the hand was pretty closely to identical except for what I was holding.

Nice to see dividing opinions about this. Since it's divided, let's add a poll here

Re: Funky river decision

make a poll that says should i bet the turn. thats where the real question should be

Re: Funky river decision

[ QUOTE ]
what do you mean giving him a free card. this turn bet is spew. by checking we keep the pot size manageable and we wont be put to this decision on the river. a turn bet folds out hands you beat and hands you are losing to come along for the ride

[/ QUOTE ]

When you check the turn behind and the river is the x of diamonds, and BB pots it, what do you do?

I think this turn is a bad spot to check behind for pot control. You have top two on a drawy board, bet it.

Re: Funky river decision

[ QUOTE ]
make a poll that says should i bet the turn. thats where the real question should be

[/ QUOTE ]

No please don't bet the turn and let all the draws get their for free.

Re: Funky river decision

I definitely bet the turn and fold the river. Really, what are you ahead of that would have called flop/turn bets? That would be one hell of a bluff considering the board.

I would need a read that villain was capable of this play in order to call.

Re: Funky river decision

look at flop action. villain check called which is possibly a FD. im not saying to put him exactly on that hand. but say we do check behind and villain pots it on the river that is a diamond. we can call since the bet will only be 4$.

yeah we have top two on a board that has likely completed a possible draw.

what happens when we bet the turn and villain POTS A NON DIAMOND RIVER?????

turn is an easy check

edit: i think i confused pot size with another hand and the turn would be 11$ here so PSB is 11 on the river if we check and he pots it.

and i still think we check this turn

Re: Funky river decision

a draw just got there!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Re: Funky river decision

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what happens when we bet the turn and villain POTS A NON DIAMOND RIVER?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you can consider FOLDING.

I think a turn bet here is fine. People are going to be calling the flop with all kinds of junk and a backdoor diamond draw is definitely conceivable. And I think there are too many things that call us on the turn to give up the value here.

On the river, I'm guessing that you've run into either a flush or something mildly zany, like A6. Could be a poorly played set or worse two pair, too. I think this is very close, but I would probably call here.

Re: Funky river decision

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what happens when we bet the turn and villain POTS A NON DIAMOND RIVER?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you can consider FOLDING.

I think a turn bet here is fine. People are going to be calling the flop with all kinds of junk and a backdoor diamond draw is definitely conceivable. And I think there are too many things that call us on the turn to give up the value here.

On the river, I'm guessing that you've run into either a flush or something mildly zany, like A6. Could be a poorly played set or worse two pair, too. I think this is very close, but I would probably call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

if we were to consider folding here then if we check the turn and he pots river we can call for nearly the same price we were going to bet on the turn while still keeping the pot manageable with what may be the best hand

convo with The Grunch

wanted to talk it over with someone else who hasnt read any other responses, which is what grunding comes from and i know hed make an opinion based on reading just the OP.

so heres our convo

GrunchCan: shoot
The Machine 2p2: ok
The Machine 2p2: link
The Machine 2p2: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...e=0#Post7726813
GrunchCan: let's see...
The Machine 2p2: i think betting the turn is bad here only because it bloats the pot

GrunchCan: i dont disagree. given the opponents stackk size, any reasonable turn bet will nearly commit him if he calls. he's going to be calling thin here and then either pushing or calling thin on the river. we have a showdown hand and I think we should be going for a small pot. check the turn, with the intention of calling many river bets
GrunchCan: now lets see what everyone else said...

The Machine 2p2: yes thats my exact though
The Machine 2p2: thought*
The Machine 2p2: everyone said to bet the turn because he could have a draw
The Machine 2p2: which is possible given that hes a 50/17
The Machine 2p2: but i still think its spew because we make worse hands fold and better hands call

GrunchCan: im not sure that many worse hands will fold since hes short. but those same worse hands will often give us a hard decision on the river when they push
GrunchCan: and we're behind more often than not when he pushes the river

The Machine 2p2: if we check the turn you mean or bet

GrunchCan: as played when he bets the turn, we're behind most of the time

The Machine 2p2: ohh yeah def

GrunchCan: but we have to call because were not behind all the time. so our turn bet put us in a position where wre have to make a bad call on the end for all our chips
GrunchCan: im not sure we can fold the river
GrunchCan: i mean as played
GrunchCan: were getting 3:1 after all, and a shortie could easily be making a desperate play for the pot

The Machine 2p2: but i feel that with a hand that is as strong as ours why not check the turn and get basically the same price if villain were to PSB river
The Machine 2p2: yeah it is 3:1 as played

GrunchCan: i agree
GrunchCan: the turn is the nexus of this hand
GrunchCan: and i like checking the turn
GrunchCan: and to all those saying "free draw! free draw!" I say, he has 9 outs, he's only getting there 18% of the time. letting him draw isnt so bad

The Machine 2p2: exactly

GrunchCan: moreover if we bet, i think we should push

The Machine 2p2: push on the turn??

GrunchCan: ya

The Machine 2p2: if he were to bet?

GrunchCan: no i mean as played
GrunchCan: hold on...

The Machine 2p2: no villain open pushed river
The Machine 2p2: c/c flop and turn and open pushed river

GrunchCan: no i meant this; on the turn, check > push > bet less than push
GrunchCan: but im not sure about pushing the turn

The Machine 2p2: yeah check is def better
The Machine 2p2: but isnt a push too much
The Machine 2p2: its like double pot
The Machine 2p2: so if we get called we should know were behind right?
The Machine 2p2: i cant see many worse hands calling except maybe a worse 2 pair

GrunchCan: no the shortie might easily call with just a naked diamond
GrunchCan: and he would be very wrojng to, which is what makes pushing good
GrunchCan: but im still not sure about pushing...
GrunchCan: i know i have pushed in this spot before, even though it was a big overbet
GrunchCan: but now i think of it, one of the reasons i do it is to cultivate my donkey lagtard image
GrunchCan: if we take that aspect out of it, pushing is probably -EV
The Machine 2p2: yeah i could see doing it where we might have villains who are aware and might note that you may be a donkey making crazy plays to set up yourself for later
The Machine 2p2: which that logic is wasted at micro levels
GrunchCan: actually, i dont think it is wasted, but thats a story for another show...
GrunchCan: and the 2p2 advice is definitely to forget metagamme at the micros
GrunchCan: and i wont try to dislodge that advice

went on to a short rant about other topics but theres some more advice and reasoning behind checking the turn

Re: convo with The Grunch

you guys talk a lot.

Re: convo with The Grunch

Aight. In the actual hand, I called and he showed AQ with Ad.

The thing is, this is so remarkably like a AA hand I had earlier where people advocated me to bet even though essentially the strength against his range is around the same.

If I had AA here on turn, say AsAh. Would checking still be better?

Re: convo with The Grunch

One thing that hasn't been mentioned are your FH draws. Considering this and what has been said I agree now it's better to check the turn.

Checking with AA would be worse.