Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Two Plus Two Newer Archives (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Small Stakes (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41)
-   -   My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=24)

fimbulwinter 01-27-2005 07:07 AM

My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Well, im done getting the polo for the gf and clearing the bonus. I'm once again free of poker.

Final results:

6max
Hands: 1400
$ earned (poker): 271
$ earned (bonus): 200
PTBB/100 (poker): 19
PTBB/100 (bonus): 14
VP$IP: 42%
PFR: 19%

Quick Thoughts: the game is beatable, no question. The real question is why aren't a lot of players killing it. after playing bigger games, coming back to a game like 25NL is a pleasure; players can be induced to act like you want them to and tell you exactly what they hold with their betting.

I understand some people are having trouble getting started, and I too once struggled with even these games. Here are a few huge mistakes and small pointers that i think might give some of you guys an extra edge.

A Few Common Mistakes:

1. Not value betting the river. this i bad, especially when in position against an opponent who is very unlikely to be drawing. this (VERY) often happens on J and T high boards where it's almost given that someone has hit with KT or AJ and the other guy hit his connector. Players always seem to dog this; remember that river value bets are the best money in holdem, because the loser is always drawing dead. Don't leave this money on the table.

2. Not allowing a probable drawer to bluff the river. very often when the flop comes Ace[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] etc. people will call to the river to try and spike their flush. sometimes they have as little as $5 left by the river and only a busted draw to show for it. most players holding a strong ace at 25NL will shove it in and inevitably fold out the drawer; if you're out of position check it to him and let him try a desperation bluff; you want him to pay his whole stack for his draw, not just most of it.

3. Not river bluffing when it's hopeless and you've been betting. say you've been betting a flush and gutshot draw and its the river with 30 bucks in the pot and the probable drawer checks to you. almost all 25NL players check behind here and i can't say how many times two draws were shown down in these types of pots. the bluff doesnt and shouldnt be big, you just want them to lay down a higher nopair than you have. remember that this only has to work a small amount of time if you're betting 1/3 pot, and the times I try it i'd guess it works about 50% of the time, so take that EV.

4. Raising when you're either waaay ahead or waaay behind. In a hand I had AQs on button and bumped it. 3 callers. flop came A73 rainbow and someone led into me. either i'm crushed or i'm killing them, and i probably won't be able to get away from this given the 25NL players and the short stacks, so instead of raising when bet into, i just call. this looks weak and induces further bluffs. make your decision right there how to play it and go with your read, if you call there you call down the rest of the hand, even if a 7 or 2 peels off. if you're MAKING them bluff then you MUST call. in the hand the run came an ace and the guy bet again, i called. river blanked and he pushed, i called and he showed KQo. If i'd have raised the flop i'd have made a little. by taking a small risk, i made a lot. note this does not apply to draw heavy boards, so raise those likely semibluffs, but not the pure bluffs.

5. slowplaying the wrong kinds of hands. people ALWAYS slowplayed sets. one hand a guy had JJ on a J98 flop and pushed in on the river with a board of 389JQ. slowplaying should depend not on the strength of hand but on the likelyhood of it being outdrawn. one hand an habitual lag be into my A7s on a board of A33r in an unraised pot. i'f i'm ahead, he has few outs, if im behind he'll probably get paid as he was such a terrible lag. I called and put a blocker out on the turn and river and took a nice pot against his 88.

6. open limping in agressive games. there's a reason it pays to bet in poker; namely because the other guy might fold and you win without having to make a hand. if you're holding a hand that doesnt want a raise, either raise it yourself or fold it. getting in the habit of limp/fold with many hands is suicide, espcially with a positonal lag on the table, and there will be many as you move up.

7. overall, draws were played horribly by all. remember, headup, draws are not +EV if you check/call. the bets are too big to give good pot odds and the stacks too short to give enough implied odds. if you have a great draw, like a straight/gutshot+lush draw, get super aggro. make him lay down or take a coinflip. if you have a good draw, like a flush draw with a possibly clean overcard, either play it passively multiway or aggro headup. if you flop a crap draw, like a low flush draw on a high paired board, FOLD. you DON'T need to play every draw you flop.

8. adjust your starters by stack depth. if you and two other guys at the table have 150BB's (as was very common in this game) you can play 64o from LP. if you have 20BB's, you can play KTo, but stay away from that hand when deep unless you're playing it just for broadway straight value. look at what you can win and make hands that can win that sized pots: <40BB's make TPTK, megadraws (like AKs on a twoflush board) and overpairs; 40<x<100 go for two pair, sets and straights; after that go for anything he can't see.

Good luck out there guys. remember to think about what you WANT to happen and bet your money such that it does. use your stack to control the other guy and eventually break him. even at these levels, players can be coached to think what you want them to; so do it.

fim

DBowling 01-27-2005 07:38 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
fanfuckingtastic post. should be stickied.

naegid 01-27-2005 08:11 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Genius!

This is low stakes NL gold. Thank you for taking the time to post it!

TrailofTears 01-27-2005 09:44 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Nice post fim. Much appreciated and should be read and re-read by all who post here. Now, why don't you stick around a bit longer...

- ToT

SideCash 01-27-2005 10:01 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
On point one, value bet the river, in that situation, with AJ, J still high card on board. How big of a bet do you make on the river?

sourbeaver 01-27-2005 01:47 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
[ QUOTE ]
On point one, value bet the river, in that situation, with AJ, J still high card on board. How big of a bet do you make on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

The generic answer is : you bet as much as you think your opponent will call. Put yourself in his spot, imagine the hand he's holding, and imagine what kind of bet you would call in that spot. If it's obvious he's on a busted draw, let him take a shot at a bluff like fim suggested. If you figure he's on second-pair on TP-weak-kick, make an almost insulting bet, such that he'll be compelled to call, or even raise in some situations.

Let's say the pot is 10, you could bet 1-3.
Pot is 20, bet 2-4.

These are numbers I generally use and get called a nice amount of time with dead hands.

noggindoc 01-27-2005 02:36 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Many thanks for an excellent post fim, this is definitely the type of post that makes this a great website.

miajag 01-27-2005 04:10 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Outstanding post. This has been my bread-and-butter game lately, and all of your advice is right on.

Kaz The Original 01-27-2005 04:13 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
" Not value betting the river. this i bad, especially when in position against an opponent who is very unlikely to be drawing. this (VERY) often happens on J and T high boards where it's almost given that someone has hit with KT or AJ and the other guy hit his connector. Players always seem to dog this; remember that river value bets are the best money in holdem, because the loser is always drawing dead. Don't leave this money on the table.

2. Not allowing a probable drawer to bluff the river. very often when the flop comes Ace etc. people will call to the river to try and spike their flush. sometimes they have as little as $5 left by the river and only a busted draw to show for it. most players holding a strong ace at 25NL will shove it in and inevitably fold out the drawer; if you're out of position check it to him and let him try a desperation bluff; you want him to pay his whole stack for his draw, not just most of it.
"

Are these not contradictory?

TheWorstPlayer 01-27-2005 04:22 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
No, they aren't. The key is to put them on a hand. If the flop comes J-7-2 rainbow and you bet and get called, turn 8, bet, call, river 2, you should bet since they most likely have a jack (or maybe 7). If the flop is 8-9-2 with two hearts and you bet and they call. Turn is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] bet call, river is 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], no draws got there, and the river could be a bit of a "scare card" so check it to them and induce a bluff. They are almost 100% on a draw.

aeakos 01-27-2005 05:15 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Any suggestions on starting hand requirements for these 6max games?

Los Feliz Slim 01-27-2005 05:22 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Thank you.

ihardlyknowher 01-27-2005 05:47 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Even though you already have enough lipstick on your butt, I need to say thank you too. This summarizes everything I am doing wrong right now. But the good news is, I am winning anyway. Thanks for getting me one step closer to quitting my day job.

DBowling 01-27-2005 05:57 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
[ QUOTE ]
Are these not contradictory?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im pretty sure hes talking about position plays. Out of position, induce a bluff by checking. In position, when checked to, value bet and hope that he hit a pair with one of his drawing cards or he's been chasing you down with 2nd pair the entire way.

TheWorstPlayer 01-27-2005 07:59 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
In many circumstances when you are OOP you should still value bet. Mostly depends on how likely it is that he is on a draw. Many players will call down with top pair crap kicker and you are missing value if you are letting them check behind on the river.

fimbulwinter 01-27-2005 08:04 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
The amount to bet is mostly player and table image dependant.

FWIW, without reads etc. my standard is 1/2 to 3/4 pot, depending on pot size (with larger pots getting porportionally smaller bets).

fim

fimbulwinter 01-27-2005 08:09 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
[ QUOTE ]
" Not value betting the river. this i bad, especially when in position against an opponent who is very unlikely to be drawing. this (VERY) often happens on J and T high boards where it's almost given that someone has hit with KT or AJ and the other guy hit his connector. Players always seem to dog this; remember that river value bets are the best money in holdem, because the loser is always drawing dead. Don't leave this money on the table.

2. Not allowing a probable drawer to bluff the river. very often when the flop comes Ace etc. people will call to the river to try and spike their flush. sometimes they have as little as $5 left by the river and only a busted draw to show for it. most players holding a strong ace at 25NL will shove it in and inevitably fold out the drawer; if you're out of position check it to him and let him try a desperation bluff; you want him to pay his whole stack for his draw, not just most of it.
"

Are these not contradictory?

[/ QUOTE ]

just reread the post and realized how terribly i put all of this. what i was discussing is playing with position on a (nearly) drawless board versus playing out of position on a draw heavy board, both with top pair kind of hands.

the real overlying message is this: make a read and go with it. don't bet because you have a hand, bet because of what you think he has. if you've got quads, don't shove it in on the river if you think he missed his draw cos you're bulletproof, let him bluff. conversely, if you've got a very marginal hand like KJ on a drawless board, you need to realize that most players will raise AJ and so all the other J's are paying you, so whn he checks to you, put a value bet out there as your holding, though very shaky, is probably best >80% of the time.

One relevant anecdote: A while back i showed a friend who was (is) a struggling actor how to beat the 25NL games on party and one thing that shocked me was his innate ability to read hands. i spent a day making him verbalize his reads ("he's probably got diamonds because he didn't raise and called very quickly" etc.) and then making him think about what he needs to do to play well against those kinds of hands. he made 6 buyins that day, and promptly lost most of them playing home alone that night. point is that this guy is not half as smart as the average 2+2er and he could read hands great if he thought about it a little, far too often i see players betting hands because they have them (I have to bet this marginal overpair in a multiway raised pot...) and this will get you a small profit, simply because you play better starters and therefore will, in general have a better hand, but if you want to make real money, your bets should be made to induce mistakes in the most likely hand the villain could hold.

fim

FUpaymee 01-27-2005 08:25 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Excellent post. I have converted to a $25 NL player from an SnG player recently...I have found it to be much more profitable, and there are SO many fish. Last night I feasted on this one guy...he kept busting out with terrible hands to me, and then just kept reloading. I think I took all his money 4 times...had a very good night. +280 for the night. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Granted I had some amazing hands.

I also haven't noticed much difference between the play at the $50 and $25 tables either.

As for the value bet on the river...this is very key. I have saved so much money with these bets lately. Everything else on your post is right on as well. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

lemondropmmm 01-27-2005 08:44 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Dude. Make your clarifications and submit this to the 2+2 magazine. And get another +$200 EV!!!

The Lemon

fimbulwinter 01-27-2005 09:23 PM

My General Starting Hands (WARNING)
 
Been wanting to do this one for a while.

CAVEAT: THIS WORKS FOR ME, IT MAY NOT FOR YOU. THIS ASSUMES YOU'RE EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO PLAY A POSSIBLY DOMINATED SUITED/CONNECTED/PAIRED HAND AND THAT YOU KNOW THE 5/10 RULE AND APPLY IT.

If you're just starting out, play tight. that said, here's about how I played at 25NL, but i did also make some fancypants moves that were habit from the prima games that i won't list here. If i'd have played more like this, i'd probably have done better. also 6max ONLY. pull this full ring and you deserve to lose.

Definitions:

Offsuit Hands:
M: monsters AA,KK
BPP: big pairs QQ,JJ,TT
MPP: medium pairs 99,88,77
SPP: small pairs 66 to 22
BOB: big offsuit broadway AK, AQ
OBC: offsuit broadway connectors KQ, JQ, JT
OBSC: offsuit broadway semiconnectors KJ, QT
OBT: offsuit broadway trash AJ, AT, KT
OC: offsuit connectors 9T to 45
OSC: offsuit semiconnectors J9 to 46
LOT: little offsuit trash 69, 35, 24, 23 etc.

"Sooted" gets an "S" instead of an "O" so QTs is a SBSC etc.

SA: sooooooted aces
SK: sooooooted kings
SCT: sooooooted complete trash (J2s...)
SBB:
SBC:
SBSC:
SBT:
SC:
SSC:
LST:

Actions:
RRP: raise, reraise, push
RRF: raise, reraise, fold to push. use your brain here WRT stack sizes.
RC: raise or call a raise, fold to massive heat, except monsters
RF: raise or fold to a raise or reraise
CR: call and raise (limp/reraise)
CC: call and call a raise
CF: call and fold to a raise
F: fold

Positions:
SB: Small Blind
BB: Big blind
LP: Button and CO
EP: UTG, UTG+1


Ok, here we go:

Shallow game, first in

SB (or blind battle in general ie SB completes and you're on BB):
M: CC
BPP: RRP
MPP: RC
SPP: CC
BOB: RRP
OBC: RF
OBSC: RF
OBT: RF
OC: CC
OSC: CC
LOT: F
SA: RF
SK: RF
SCT: CF
SBB: RRP
SBC: RC
SBSC: RC
SBT: RF
SC: RC
SSC: CC
LST: CF

BB:
fold everything [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

LP:
M: RRP
BPP: RC
MPP: RC
SPP: RC
BOB: RC
OBC: RF
OBSC: RF
OBT: RF
OC: RC
OSC: RC
LOT: F
SA: RF
SK: RF
SCT: F
SBB: RC
SBC: RC
SBSC: RC
SBT: RF
SC: RC
SSC: RC
LST: FF

EP:
M: RRP
BPP: RRC
MPP: CC
SPP: CC
BOB: RF
OBC: CF
OBSC: F
OBT: F
OC: F
OSC: F
LOT: F
SA: F
SK: F
SCT: F
SBB: RF
SBC: RF
SBSC: F
SBT: F
SC: RC or F
SSC: RC or F
LST: F





Shallow game, with limper(s)

SB:
M: RRP
BPP: RC
MPP: CC
SPP: CC
BOB: RC or CC
OBC: CF
OBSC: CF
OBT: CF
OC: CF
OSC: CF
LOT: F
SA: CF
SK: CF
SCT: CF
SBB: RC or CC
SBC: CF
SBSC: CF
SBT: CF
SC: CF
SSC: CF
LST: CF

BB:
M: RRP
BPP: RC
MPP: CC
SPP: CC
BOB: RC
OBC: CF
OBSC: CF
OBT: CF
OC: CF
OSC: CF
LOT: CF
SA: CF
SK: CF
SCT: CF
SBB: RC
SBC: CF
SBSC: CF
SBT: CF
SC: CF
SSC: CF
LST: CF

LP:
M: RC
BPP: RRF
MPP: RC
SPP: CC
BOB: RC
OBC: RF
OBSC: RF
OBT: RF
OC: CF
OSC: CF
LOT: CF
SA: CF
SK: CF
SCT: CF
SBB: RC
SBC: RC
SBSC: RC
SBT: CF
SC: CC
SSC: CC
LST: CF

EP: same as without limpers





readme:
this is a rough sketch, but even this isn't a good guideline if you treat it robotically. also, i can't stress this enough, that you need to think about the table texture here. no point raising 89s on the button if people will call with JQ and KT and A9. conversely, there's no reason to reraise a maniac who raises your blind when you hold AA/KK. Use this as a suggestion, not as rules.

fim

Allinlife 01-27-2005 10:19 PM

Re: My General Starting Hands (WARNING)
 
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

vabogee 01-27-2005 10:54 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
this thread should be deleted immediately. it's just too informative.

[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Allinlife 01-28-2005 12:48 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
VP$IP: 42%
PFR: 19%
can these type of figures be +EV over "avg PP25 6max"?
even when 4 tabling?
HOW!

Allinlife 01-28-2005 12:58 AM

Re: My General Starting Hands (WARNING)
 
Actions:
RRP: raise, reraise, push
RRF: raise, reraise, fold to push. use your brain here WRT stack sizes.
RC: raise or call a raise, fold to massive heat, except monsters
RF: raise or fold to a raise or reraise
CR: call and raise (limp/reraise)
CC: call and call a raise
CF: call and fold to a raise
F: fold

These action codes.. I'm a bit confused. is first letter preflop and second letter postflop and 3rd being possibly flop/ turn? I'm assuming it's all preflop but just making sure.


SB (or blind battle in general ie SB completes and you're on BB):
M: CC ?? I dont get it are you advocating to slow play with AA/KK

aiel 01-28-2005 01:23 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
>> VP$IP: 42% PFR: 19%
>> how can these type of figures be +EV over "avg PP25 6max"?

I think your post flop play has to be phenominal, which explains why fimbul can rack these numbers. I used to be at 42% VP, 8.2% PFR and i had some major swings because of leaks (many many leaks) in my game. I tightened up for these 1400 hands with 27 VP, 6.7 PFR and did about 15BB/100.

In caffione and harrington's books, both authors talk about how you can step up aggression if your post flop skills are excellent because you will face alot of tough decisions.
If your postflop isnt as good, tightening up helps keep you out of trouble.

fimbulwinter 01-28-2005 01:44 AM

Re: My General Starting Hands (WARNING)
 
these are all preflop. no way postflop play is that easy.

RRP means you get all in if you can, RRF means that if you're facing an all in bet, you fold, but normal sized raises you reraise and if there is no raise, you raise.

fim

PS i've had a lot of success slowplaying AA/KK headsup on 50BB stacks. I wouldnt do this on prima, but on party i took two stacks letting people bluff or bet their top pair to the felt.

Lawrence Ng 01-28-2005 05:08 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hands: 1400

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a wopload of hands man.

Lawrence

phrosty 01-28-2005 10:02 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Excellent post. Could you elaborate a bit on point # 8? You lost me a little with the 40<x<100 part. Is this supposed to be 40bb vs. 100bb maybe? I have a tendency to build a nice stack and then get passive giving back half my winnings before leaving. I'd really like some help on playing the big stack. Thanks again for an excellent post.

theredpill2 01-28-2005 10:37 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Fimbul,

Yeah, awesome post. I read every word of it. Great stuff. One question. How do you know they are bluffing on the river ? Seems to me if I knew you like to call all-ins on the river, you might just have a problem on your hands. I imagine you encountered some trouble from better players with this ? Or did you just steer clear of good players ? Am I being a jerk ? I know you are an excellent player but I have no idea when someone is bluffing.

BigF 01-28-2005 07:01 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Brilliant! Brilliant!! Brilliant!!!

Burno 01-29-2005 05:02 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Bump this insta-classic for anyone who missed it.

Absolute gold fim.

lapoker17 01-29-2005 05:12 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Don't play these games, but nicely done, man. Well written and well thought out.

tbach24 01-29-2005 06:19 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
This is the best post I have ever read. Thanks, fim.

ihardlyknowher 02-19-2005 01:38 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Wanted to bump this thread because it is by far the best thing I have ever read to improve my game. Also, wanted to add another thought.

Not that I am presuming my advice is anywhere near as good as this (I am barely at a level to comprehend this stuff, let alone conceive and articulate it).

Anyway, I found it quite profitable at 25NL PP to bluff at particular scared cards on fourth street, especially in pots with weak-tight players (obviously). For example, in a pot that was raised preflop, the flop comes AT4, and another 4 falls on the turn, making a reasonable bet will take it down quite often. I would also think this is better done is raised pots for two reasons: (1) you are less likely to run into a 4; and (2) you may get looked up, so save jeopardizing your credibility for the bigger pots.

Other thoughts/criticisms are encouraged, especially from the more experienced players.

tbach24 02-19-2005 01:47 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Good bump. I've seen waaay too many "Help, I'm starting at NL cash game" threads lately and this is a great outline for NL cash.

lil_o 02-22-2005 11:16 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
i was looking back thru old posts and i wanted to bring this back to the top since this is a great beginner post. nice job.

thatpfunk 02-22-2005 11:25 AM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
thanks for convincing people to play like maniacs [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

rickr 02-23-2005 01:28 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Hey thatpfunk,
Are you saying you disagree with OP, hand charts, or???

Thanks,
Rick

NiceCatch 02-23-2005 02:36 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
Fim, truly first-class post. I would like to add that reading through the post, I found a grasp for a particular mode of thinking that needs to be applied to 6max NL games.

While the specifics may apply directly to small-stakes games, the method of thinking and the concepts are excellent for many levels of 6max NL.

I especially like the emphasis of blocking bets on the river, and buying the pot off of another drawer for a decent price. I think a huge part of 6max (and more short-handed) play at any level is getting a good price to buy pots; a huge portion of your profits can come from this simple strategy. It's also huge in the metagame; your opponents will not know how to read your small river bets (was he drawing? Does he have a pair? Is there a monster hiding in there? Geez, I better not try to bluff this one...).

As Doyle said in Super System, you won't BELIEVE all the times where your bet is just screaming for a call, and they'll fold.

thatpfunk 02-23-2005 06:48 PM

Re: My 25NL Adventure/Pilgrimage
 
i didn't take the time to read through them, i was responding specifically to the vpip and pfr and funny wr/100.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:44 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.