Tough decisions with kickers
 

heres a major problem i bet most people have, but dont know how to deal with. say your on the button holding A-10o preflop, raise 3xBB, 3 callers. flop is A-9-4 rainbow. BB bets big, MPs fold, BBs bet is large enough to force you all in. what do you do?

the way i figure , with three callers preflop, one must have at least A-x. This situation comes up many times im sure you all know, my point is, what would a real pro do? im not asking for that "it depends" crap. my point is, theres no defense against kicker problems that i know of. straights, flushes, etc are easy to spot, but in poker many situations come up where two players face off, and its the kicker that decides it, but you cant really put someone on the EXACT card- similar to a four-flush turn with 3 ppl seeing it, hero holds queen high. anybody have any advice?

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

so there was a limper and you raise with A10? And someone bets out, out of position? Easy fold.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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so there was a limper and you raise with A10? And someone bets out, out of position? Easy fold.

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seriously.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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...that "it depends" crap...

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That's what poker is. If you knew that you would have included some thoughs on the range of hands your opponent may be playing and how often he's made similar plays in similar situations. You also would have mentioned how big the stacks are and how big the blinds are. So it does depend.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

The way I read it there were two limpers before he raised pre-flop and they both called after the BB called.

In the scenario described it is an easy fold.

What puzzles me is, holding AT, what do you really want to see on the flop knowing that both limpers and the BB are getting great odds to see the flop with you.

Tough post-flop kicker decisions frequently are the result of pre-flop confusion.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

First of all, if playing online, I wouldn't raise 3xBB when on the button with A, 10. I would've just called. If SB and/or BB raised 3xBB, I would even fold A, 10 after placing the BB value if unsuited. The limpers may be calling with Ace-rags and most likely made two pair, A, 9 or A, 4 in this case. Even when playing online, when guessing the hands of limpers in the SB and BB after a strong bet or re-raise coming from them, you HAVE to consider the fact that their cards can be rags and that they've hit two pair the least. Even if you have notes on the BB player currently betting big that he's a bad player, that he overbets the pot, it is not sufficient info for you to call. Around 85% of strong bets and re-raises are because they do have a strong hand. Why bother with such an unfavorable odd. The only way I would call this bet is if the BB player had lost a big hand in a previous hand and is mostly on tilt, otherwise it is an easy fold.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

ok, yes, in THIS particular situation, i understand why most people would fold, but it seems to me that some of you feel that just because someone bets or raises, they must have an awesome hand. obviously the BB would love for me to fold on the flop since the pot is big enough anyways. if he really had top two pair, would he bet that big, would you? from early position with what is arguably going to be the best hand, wouldnt you rather check-raise/ slowplay? i wasnt asking for advice on how to play that specific situation, i was asking for advice on these situations in general, say one person holding KJ, aother KQ, and a flop of K-4-2 rainbow, how do you handle holding hands like KJ?

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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how do you handle holding hands like KJ?

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by usually not playing it.
You seem to think this is a widespread problem. It is, but only for weaker players.
The kicker problems you seem to be running into stems from playing weak hands. Unless you are confident with your hand reading ability, I'd suggest playing tighter.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

KJ is very similar to AT.

What exactly are you looking to flop?

These type hands are vulnerable when making top pair on the flop.

This is the best I can do without being able to use "it depends".

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

Don't be a nit, noone likes them, if you are good enough to read the board/players you should be able to play a bunch of hands and know when to get off them and know when to push them. You make more/faster money this way and it's more entertaining.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

If you read the OP's posts, the skill set you describe is exactly what he has trouble with.

Avoiding most tough situations is a viable way of dealing with them until you have more skills. You can work on them a little at a time.

Rather than call me a nit why don't you enlighten the OP with insight to gain the skill set you describe?

For what it is worth, I may be a douche but I am never a nit.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

i know that avoiding these situations is a good idea in general, but how about the times the bad guy doesnt have what his bet represents? wouldnt that be a surprise, a poker player using deception to get the guy whos ahead to fold? i think most people replying are looking too much into A10 as a hand instead of the general problem. how about putting it this way- two guys see a flop of 7-7-K rainbow, one holds Q-7, another A-7. i guess im asking too much, trying to figure out how to avoid bad luck. i dont know any "skill" that can be learned that can avoid these situations. i bet all of you reading this would be happy to call, dont kid yourself.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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i know that avoiding these situations is a good idea in general, but how about the times the bad guy doesnt have what his bet represents? wouldnt that be a surprise, a poker player using deception to get the guy whos ahead to fold? i think most people replying are looking too much into A10 as a hand instead of the general problem. how about putting it this way- two guys see a flop of 7-7-K rainbow, one holds Q-7, another A-7. i guess im asking too much, trying to figure out how to avoid bad luck. i dont know any "skill" that can be learned that can avoid these situations. i bet all of you reading this would be happy to call, dont kid yourself.

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What exactly are you asking here? How the person with q-7 can fold? With a good read. You can't pose questions like this. It's like saying: if two people are standing on opposite sides of a door and fire guns towards each other, can they avoid being hit. What if one has a .45 and the other has a 9mm?
[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

huber117,

To start with, you got yourself into this 'kicker' connundrum because of bad play during pre-flop and yet you question the BB's aggressive play. No matter of your style, you simply had to fold that hand. If you're playing tight, what the hell are you raising 3xBB with A, 10? If you are playing aggressive, why are you worrying about losing 3xBB?

As for the BB's overbet, if he did have a strong hand, then he deserved the pot. If he was bluffing, he will make the same mistake of overbetting and in due time, he will get busted.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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heres a major problem i bet most people have, but dont know how to deal with. say your on the button holding A-10o preflop, raise 3xBB, 3 callers. flop is A-9-4 rainbow. BB bets big, MPs fold, BBs bet is large enough to force you all in. what do you do?

the way i figure , with three callers preflop, one must have at least A-x. This situation comes up many times im sure you all know, my point is, what would a real pro do? im not asking for that "it depends" crap. my point is, theres no defense against kicker problems that i know of. straights, flushes, etc are easy to spot, but in poker many situations come up where two players face off, and its the kicker that decides it, but you cant really put someone on the EXACT card- similar to a four-flush turn with 3 ppl seeing it, hero holds queen high. anybody have any advice?

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Well, let's look at it. What could the BB have that makes him just call on the flop and then bet out against 3 other people out of position.

A-K? He would have raised pre-flop.
A-Q? Hmmm...maybe, but a raise is also quite likely.
A-J? Could have called with that one.
A-9? He could have called.
A-8? Maybe, but it's starting to get unlikely.
A-7 to A-2? Probably not.
9-9? Call or raise pre-flop definitely yes, but he would have checked the flop.
T-9s? Preflop call yes, but bet it out on the flop? Some do, but bet it that big? Playing against an all-in caller (you) with 2nd pair? Not sure.
9-8s? Dito.
9-7s? Dito.

So what can you beat? I'd say in this situation you got a pretty easy laydown. If the BB is a tricky player who likes to push people off hands with his big stack, that might change the decision though.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

my advice is first of all A10 is not a raising hand even if your on the button my advice would be to fold.
if im on the button im not raising with anyting less than aq if its off suit

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

"if im on the button im not raising with anyting less than aq if its off suit"

dunno what u play but depending on the situation i sometimes raise any2 on the button...

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

it all boils down to A 10 is not a raising hand and as others stated it is an easy fold, sure any body can raise with 7 2 off suit but if you have some one raising and betting on top of that then you can assume they have a good they may have ak aq or aj if they are betting ace rag they are losers in the long run any elementary poker book will tell you to fold A10 after a raise and a bet

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

Well, with AT on the button and two limpers, I think it's pretty close whether to raise or limp. If I raise, I'm hoping to take a small pot by folding everybody preflop, or get headsup and take it with a continuation bet on the flop. If I don't have a fairly high probablility of picking up the pot by the flop. limping is better.

To OP: You didn't say how big the bet you're facing is, or how big your stack is, but in NL, calling an overbet for your whole stack, unless it's pretty small, with top pair, even top pair, top kicker, is usually a mistake.

If you can't deal with an "It depends." answer, poker is not the game for you. Learn to count cards and play blackjack. It's high variance and not nearly as probitable as playing good poker, but there's never any doubt about what the right answer to "How should I play this hand?". In poker, exept for some obvious folds, the answer is nearly always "It depends.".

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

Wow . Im raising with AT on the button. But what situation is this where any raise commints yuo all in? Surely this is not for cash games. And in a tourney, if your pot committed on the flop, just push preflop. I'm having a hard time understanding this scenario.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

Heh.. my understanding was he raised and both blinds called!

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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Heh.. my understanding was he raised and both blinds called!

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Difference of interpretation. I saw the "s" after MP (MPs) and never saw a mention of the small blind at all. So I envisioned two MP limpers.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

And, it's already been said, but include much more information. We can't give you a broad answer here because "it depends" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] on particular circumstances. Here, it's vital for us to know how big the stacks are to give a good answer.

I'll give you a couple of my thoughts. If BB has a good hand here, why wouldn't he just check and let you bet, since you were the preflop raiser? Usually, if there is a draw on the board, i'd suspect that the extra large bet was just to buy the pot with some draws. But here, there are no draws, so it comes down to a particular player and his tendencies.

In a small stakes cash game i'd more readily think i was against a really big hand here, and the BB is hoping you or someone has an ace and will pay off his two pair or set here.

If I was shortstacked id have to call, but if we were deepstacked, i'd let it go and look for a better spot.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

A10 is a really overrated hand.

I 3+handed you've really got to be looking to hit a big hand. To a bet and a raise already preflop in front I'd insta-fold without even thinking.

It can just get you in a world of trouble. In your particular hand, you gotta ask yourself what you're beating...the answer is not a lot. You're behind to A9 or A4, a set of either etc. You beat A8 and worse.

Pitch that junk pre-flop. Try to avoid situations like this.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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A 10 is not a raising hand

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You have a lot to learn. In most games, limit or no limit, if it's folded to you on the button, A2 is a raising hand. In NL with a limper or two in front, it really depends on what hands your opponents will limp with. If it's any two, AT is an easy raise. If their limping range is fairly tight, you are probably better off limping.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

Wow, all these players who say never play AT or KJ must never try to steal. Get me a game with these guys to my left. I wonder how much action they get when they raise with AA?

I get into this situation a lot, because I'll raise with almost any two cards if I think it's a good spot for a steal.

Regarding your question, I think you need to realize that people don't make plays at the preflop raiser that much. If you have top pair with a weak kicker, you're still looking to take it down with no resistance. If anyone can push into you on that weak looking flop, they almost always have you annihilated. If someone bets into you, or you get check-raised, just chuck it.

A nice way of avoiding this problem is to raise bigger. With that number of limpers, you're just asking for a call by only raising to 3x. Plus, they'll call with almost any two cards they'd limp with, so your read doesn't improve. I'd say 5x is warranted. That way you can have a better idea of where you stand if you're called (but hopefully you're not).

Of course, another option is to not play the ATo. With two limpers it's probably not the best spot to steal. That's not to say you should never do it, but I'd use the move sparingly.

So go ahead and play your AT and KJ. But unless you're raising when it's folded to you on the button or cutoff, you have to understand that you're stealing, not playing for value.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

To all the nits in here, if all you're raising with is AQ+ on the button you are going to be very easy to play against.

Re: Tough decisions with kickers
 

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To all the nits in here, if all you're raising with is AQ+ on the button you are going to be very easy to play against.

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you've missed the point. People are mostly critical about raising only 3x the BB after limpers. It's almost as ineffective as minraising from the BB when everyone has limped in.