A Big Draw OOP
 

6 handed, I raise UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

A somewhat aggressive player 3-bets in the CO. He would probably 3-bet AJs/KQs/AQ/88 at a minimum, maybe a few more. The BB calls and I call.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Checks to CO who bets, BB folds, I CR and CO calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I bet, CO raises and I call.

River A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check and call.

Lost Wages

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

What does a C/R accomplish on this flop? The board just hit his range like a mutha, you're just giving more money to better hands. As played the turn and river calls are standard for me. I would just start cussing at the site for giving me one of the only outs that obligates me to showdown but still leaves me way behind villain's range.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

I don't like this here ...

the hand range you give CO has left him with a hard-on right now ...

Perhaps if the big blind came along on the flop you could check raise to make him pay off more (but it would be slim even then IMO)

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

The CR on the flop is stellar IMO. Playing your big draws aggressively when it gets HU is crucial for 6-max play. No doubt we are behind here, but we have strong draws against all of his range. We also get the added bonus of possibly folding out a hand like AJ, 88, TT, JJ, now or when a blank falls on the Turn.

If BB calls, yes just call, preserve your raise for when you make a hand, but when it gets HU I think a raise is necessary.

River is fine, you lose a lot though.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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We also get the added bonus of minimizing our gains when we hit, and paying two bets on the turn when we miss.

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Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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minimizing our gains when we hit,

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Because he ALWAYS calls down after we Checkraise when the 3rd club hits.


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paying two bets on the turn when we miss.

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Because he ALWAYS has a hand he raises the Turn with, and we NEVER make a better hand on the turn or river.

Your right, obviously, I mean look, you have 5k more posts than I do.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

I would lead the flop and hope BB called and CO raised. I really don't think you have the equity with this flop to raise CO's PF 3-bet range after BB folds, but without a better read it's difficult to say--but in most cases I don't think you can raise here. I really don't see how the turn helps you at all. I'd c/c the turn. The river really sucks, but I'd have to c/c with 2 pair.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

I don't play alot of sh hold'em, actually I haven't played hold'em online for a few months, but I'll take a shot at this anyway.

Raising is definitely horrible here. There are tons of draws he could have which makes raising pointless since he's likely to call anyway. I do agree there are SOME hands which he'll fold, BUT those hands are very limited compared to the hands he will call with. I would bet/call on the flop. The turn card is where you'll make your money from, I think. I don't mind raising or donking the turn since the 10 is a scary card. I don't mind making a semi-bluff in this spot since the straight draw has hit. I could raise/call and fold UI on the river, OR bet/call if raised. The ace on the river sucks because now you're inclined to call with two pair even though your only ahead against someone who have a lower two pair. If I raised on the turn and gets 3bet back I actually don't have a problem folding 2 pair on the river.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

I like the flop CR. We add some fold equity to what already is a huge draw.

I'm anxiously awaiting the poker stove posts that are sure to follow. They're usually scintillating reading.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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I like the flop CR. We add some fold equity to what already is a huge draw.

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I disagree. How does a c/r on the flop buy us fold equity against a PF 3-bettor on this board? In order for this to work, we have to lead the turn no matter what hits. The problem is, the cards that improve us, may cause him to fold to our bet and the cards that improve him get us raised. And then there are the times we improve but he improves to a better hand. He's not folding a K or Q here either. I think our position makes the flop c/r with this hand a bad play. I am probably wrong so could you please explain how the flop c/r helps exactly.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

Put me in the 'I h8 the flop c/r' club.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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Put me in the 'I h8 the flop c/r' club.

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I'd like to see a little more discussion of this hand.

Is a flop c/r so bad here? We obviously gain some fold equity against a certain portion of villain's range. Perhaps this range is to narrow to give the flop c/r any value. Or perhaps the little fold equity we do gain doesn't justify destroying our implied odds.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

I think the part of his range that we are gaining FE against isn't showing his hand down regardless. I don't think we get AQ to fold, AJ will, 88, TT, JJ as well. Pretty much the only thing that might fold for the c/r is 88.

Thing is we have a big hand so I don't think it's THAT bad.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

I don't think A C/R is "bad" at all. I don't think it's worthy of any hate. I just think it's better to call, primarily for these reasons:

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Perhaps this range is to narrow to give the flop c/r any value. Or perhaps the little fold equity we do gain doesn't justify destroying our implied odds.

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Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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I don't think A C/R is "bad" at all. I don't think it's worthy of any hate. I just think it's better to call, primarily for these reasons:

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Perhaps this range is to narrow to give the flop c/r any value. Or perhaps the little fold equity we do gain doesn't justify destroying our implied odds.

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Yes, calling is better. But I also think c/r'ing the flop is bad for these reasons:

1)We almost never get a better hand to fold to the a turn c-bet.
2)The turn is almost always called by a better hand
3)the turn is always raised by a better hand
4)we must always call a turn raise because of our draws
5)when our draws come in, we are not likely to make up for extra bets we incur on the turn (and flop) those times we are raised and miss our draws.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

Nice check-raise. When you hit your ten on the turn, I'm still assuming you're behind and drawing. I don't like the turn lead: what hands that 3b pre-flop, then call a flop c/r are you ahead of? I check/call the turn.

If I check/call this turn, I think I check/fold a blank river. What can we beat? AJs.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

Flopc/r is bad. I totally agree with soah.

And we haven't talked about the turnbet yet. Does it make any sense?

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

"And we haven't talked about the turnbet yet. Does it make any sense? "

none whatsoever.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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"And we haven't talked about the turnbet yet. Does it make any sense? "

none whatsoever.

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Yes, the T was the worst possible card to continue our semibluff with. We're only getting called or raised by a better hand on the turn. Check calling the turn is now the correct play.

If a blank had fallen on the turn, a turn bet is a must if we raised the flop IMO. I'm starting to see the error in a flop c/r though.

Re: A Big Draw OOP
 

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I'd like to see a little more discussion of this hand.

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Big ups to those that have responded. It's working.

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I'm starting to see the error in a flop c/r though.

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