Finance Job questions
 

I have lurked on the boards (and enjoyed) for several years...i dont post as much as i should so i figure i owe 2+2 posters something...

Reading the responses to Strassa's post made me realize people seem to have lots of questions and some misconceptions about finance...I also graduated undergrad (1998) with an electrical engineering degree (and finance)...out of school, i chose to trade Equity derivatives at a major bank...moved up over time, and a couple of years ago left for a hedge fund where i run derivatives...my wife was an investment banker, and then eventually went to Bschool and decided to move into education...anyways, i have perspective on finance jobs (trading/banking/consulting) in general...if you have questions on the field, post them in this thread and i will do my best to respond. Mods, if this is not helpful, u can erase...i can only respond to questions at nights though...

For what its worth, I think Strassa should consider derivative type jobs over commodities...and while i thought differently about firm names early in my career, having Goldman Sachs on the resume is worth something down the road..

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pulled this from other thread:
im interested in this because i am in the process of getting a computer engineering degree, but i dont want to do anything related to that. could you elaborate more on how these firms like engineering backgrounds? i have no experience in investing besides helping my dad look up info on stocks when i was a kid that was good with computers. did you have a minor in finance or anything? any info abuot the engineering -> finance transition is useful, ty

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GP,
I dual majored in EE and finance...but i think the engineering major was looked at as favorably (if not more favorably) than the finance degree on the more quantitative desks (equity/fixed income derivatives, converts,mortgages, structures areas on other fixed income desks)...they value the processing power and organized thinking of engineers as well as the quant skills...most of the finance learning can take place on the job (so dont worry so much about not having a finance degree/classes)...the one thing i think you will need to establish is some interest in finance/markets (non class based)...just spend a little time keeping up on markets so that you can show some base knowledge of whats going on (whats markets are doing/macro market environment/major micro stories)...if you can show genuine interest in markets, you will be fine...

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Can you give more info about salaries that come with years of experience. I have reason to believe that many claims of salaries in that thread are way exagerated.

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hey, im a freshman in college majoring in finance, and im lookin to get into the trading business (i know my mind can change a bunch of times in 4 years tho). Anyway, do you think it would help me land a job if i minored or majored in engineering? Technically im not even in the business school yet, so i have some time for those type of classes. Just wonderin if it would be worth it. thanks

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this obviously is very linked to the type of job you get/firm/area you work in/are you any good...but assuming you end up at a bulge bracket firm,i would say for an undergrad an AVERAGE by year would be yr 1 and 2 - 80k-250k, yr 3 300k-500k, yr 4 500k+++++...are their people that make 1m in yr 3, yes but rare...is it possible to start at a smaller firm and receive a percentage of profit by year 2 or 3 and make 1m+ - yes, but not sure your EV is as high as having the training and name of a bigger shop...in my mind the goal is not to maximize how much you make in each year, but to raise your future EV as much as you can - especially for the first few yrs...

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rock1,

can you talk more about why you think equity option type jobs > commodity jobs. i just started working as an analyst at a trading firm, and i'm doing natural gas/electricity/etc. so far i enjoy commodities but dont really know what's on the other side. thx

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the engineering help more in the more quantitative areas...but getting an engineering degree when you arent that interested is brutal...finance degrees alone are obviously enough assuming you do fine and bring other skills....for that matter an english degree is enough if you can show other skills

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i dont quite mean it that way...commodities is one of the hottest areas in any market at the moment, and friends that trade power love their jobs...i just think commodities are in a huge bull market which has created a lot of jobs, and could slow down over time...the point i was trying to make was more that derivatives for me has opened a lot more doors...1. equity derivs makes it easier to ascend the ladder of equity sales/trading...trader/head of desk/head of derivs/head of equity department is a very reasonable progression..2. equity volatility is very much linked with credit levels and opens up fixed income doors...3.hedge funds/investment vehicles will always need derivative experts and may not always trade commodities...

i think the more important point is that derivative areas > cash areas...commodity derivative traders will have the same doors as equity/fixed income traders as they have knowledge of the same types of products...cash areas are already starting to die out as trading becomes more electronic.

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[ QUOTE ]
rock1,

can you talk more about why you think equity option type jobs > commodity jobs. i just started working as an analyst at a trading firm, and i'm doing natural gas/electricity/etc. so far i enjoy commodities but dont really know what's on the other side. thx

[/ QUOTE ]

Derivatives are more financial engineering and a lot of it is about figuring out new products faster than the rest of the market.

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Hi Rock... Thanks for taking your time to answer questions. I will be graduating in May 07 with a bachelor degree in Manufacturing Engineering. I have a real interest in a career in finance. However, I am having trouble finding entry level finance jobs available to engineering students. Even though I havent graduated yet, I have almost 16 months of real engineering work experiences in industry at Magna companies, Honeywell, etc, so my resume looks pretty good. Thus, my main question is how do I find available entry level jobs in finance? Do I apply straight to their HR department? Do I find job postings on Job Search sites like Workopolis? Our university (University of Toronto) doesnt have many graduate job listings for the big US financial companies like Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley, (most of our job postings are confined to Canada) and therefore, I need a way to (a) find out which companies are hiring and (b) find out what these positions are and how to apply for them.

Thanks a lot. Eric

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I'll graduate May '07 with a finance degree, then getting an MBA. I've taken a market derivatives course and loved it. My questin is, what job titles involve analyzing derivatives and who are the largest players in the Chicago area? (Goldman Sachs? Merill Lynch? Morgan Stanley?)

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your best bet is to apply straight to HR departments...generally the big firms pick x number of schools where they will go to recruit, and then will accept resumes from others that they find interesting...if you want to do this, you really do need to pepper as many shops as you can to try to get your foot in the door...U of Toronto may be a great school, but you are definitely at a disadvantage in finding a bulge bracket job compared to ivy league, stanford, mit, michigan, duke and a handful of other schools...you should try to find out if there are any UT graduates working at any of these places and try to get an in through them....

the other thing to keep in mind is that there are many, many finance jobs outside of wall streets...a lot of great finance jobs in corporate america...and b/c they dont always get their pick of the top candidates (people often choose NY/London/LA/asia), they really look at everyone they hear from...good luck

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In a recent post you made a comment about an English degree will do the job if you have other skills. I graduate w/ a history degree and am looking into this. I have a strong math background in high school but tested out of any math I would have to take in college so didn't take any. Where/what should I be looking for and do I have a shot?

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in sales and trading - equity and fixed income derivates and mortgages...in banking - M&A bankers need an understanding as many deals these days require option valuation...corporate america uses derivs to pay employees and to find creative ways to hedge/buyback stock...

not as many of the bulge bracket firms have upstairs options desks in chicago...lehman may be the only one i know of (and they just have sales)...however, the CBOE is one of the biggest equity option exchanges and many firms have trading operations on the floor there...(the floor exchanges are also the places you may find the deals where you can get paid a percentage of your trading profit as was mentioned in the strassa theread)

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Your best shot is being able to show market knowledge/experience that is equal to or greater than that of engineers/finance majors...

this may be surprising, but some of the less quantitative and sales type jobs may be as much as 70% personality based...you just need to get in the door and show real interest...and by personality i mean getting along well in general with people you interview with...

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Hey rock,

Thank you for making this thread. I am sure that a lot of people appreciate this, especially the younger crowd and the college senior that are looking to break into the finance industry.
In your first post you have mentioned the fact that the name/recognition of a BB firm is worth something. Do you think that the average employer at banks like Citi, BofA, BNP, Bear or Deutsche are less succesful? I guess what I am asking is if lets say I have an offer from a bank like UBS which i really enjoyed working for this past summer, should I take Goldman over it just because its Goldman.
I also wanted to ask you if it is correct to bring up the fact that I have an offer from another bank in first round interviews to leverage that in my favor and demonstrate the fact that I can get the work done.

thanks

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Chicago has Susquehanna, Citadel, Peak6, many others. Susquehanna in particular looks very favorably on poker and incorporates it into their training program and are currently hiring assistant traders last I heard.

As far as equity derivatives vs commodities, I started in options and recently moved to commodities. I think one can make a much easier transition into other areas of trading from derivatives, definitely much more technical to trade than commodites and the more basic fixed income products. That being said I am glad I made the switch, but happy I got a solid foundation in derivatives to start.

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if you are entering a rotation program at UBS, then i would say to go to Goldman if you have an offer from there...Goldmans name does help you later down the road...that being said, u can be equally successful/paid at any of the other firms you mentioned...if you were hired directly to a desk that you really like, definitely take the UBS job...

you spend a lot of time in really close quarters with these people...i have always told people that liking the people you work with largely trumps a firm with better reputation or even desks that are more successful.

As for mentioning your offer, i do think its in your best interest to mention...people like to know they have a wanted commodity in front of them...and i think in worst case it wont help- but it wont be held against you.

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when i graduate from wharton, is there any chance i can get a good job and not work more than 45ish hours a week?

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"the one thing i think you will need to establish is some interest in finance/markets (non class based)...just spend a little time keeping up on markets so that you can show some base knowledge of whats going on (whats markets are doing/macro market environment/major micro stories)...if you can show genuine interest in markets, you will be fine..."

What's the best way to do that (web links preferably)?

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good job is a relative term...plenty of 9-5 jobs...one of my friends (yes, at wharon) worked in marketing at canon and then netflix...he enjoyed working the hours you mentioned.

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try the wall street journal/financial times/free newsletters/taking a class/learning about company valuation/turn on cnbc if you are playing online poker...pretty much anything that talks about markets...(maybe motley fool or thestreet.com still exist?)

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You should turn down UBS if only to avoid a train ride to and from Stamford every day.

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[ QUOTE ]
I'll graduate May '07 with a finance degree, then getting an MBA. I've taken a market derivatives course and loved it. My questin is, what job titles involve analyzing derivatives and who are the largest players in the Chicago area? (Goldman Sachs? Merill Lynch? Morgan Stanley?)

[/ QUOTE ]

They all have some sort of sales presence in Chicago but you're going to want to work out of New York for the banks you named.

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Rock,

Let’s say I just turned 20, have about 20 hours of college credits completed and have had a very successful poker career despite only playing the game seriously for less then a year. This and the things that come with it are basically my only qualifications. Is there any way for me to land a trading job without going back to college?

Let’s say for example if I went into a trading company (sounds like even landing an interview would be next to impossible), tell them that I am ready to work 70 hour weeks, I have shipped it hard playing poker, which has made me well versed in thinking with logic as opposed to emotion, dealing with variance and has already given me some experience with the hookers and blow lifestyle, and am already to use all these traits, and whatever they can teach me to ship it hard for their firm.

I could fruther play off my youth and lack of college experince as a plus. They could mold me into a trading robot etc.

What are the odds of me getting a job through this route? 1%?

If I had to go to back to college:
As a undergrad I was going to Michigan State University, not exactly a breeding ground for finical talent. If I went back to college would the University of Michigan be a decent enough school to win a top trading job (I got accepted there) or would trying to get into an ivy league school assure me a much better chance of success? Also what should I study in school?

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[ QUOTE ]
when i graduate from wharton, is there any chance i can get a good job and not work more than 45ish hours a week?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, fellow Whartonite here. Apparently, Microsoft has a marketing program that is 35 hours a week and pays close to 80k. Good luck.

Re: Finance Job questions
 

maybe i have been a little too generous...getting a trading job at a bulge bracket firm is very difficult...there are only a certain number of jobs, getting in the door isnt easy when you are competing against ivy leaguers who have similar interests, etc...its good to be open and hopeful, but definitely stay realistic as well...anything is possible, but you have pretty much no shot through scenario 1...

as for scenario 2, if you can get into Michigan, or ivy league, you should do so...if you are coming out of MSU, your GPA should be perfect, good job experience, with a clear interest in financial markets - and then hope you are chosen over the guy like you at other schools...

the ivy league school does assure you of a better chance just because it gets you in the door of places...study what you are interested in - but math,physics,engineering, and finance type degrees will give you best chance...in terms of classes, take the classes that are finance specific (and dont skip the ones that are hard - these are generally where you will find if you really have interest in the subjects)

finally, have the one thing that makes u different than everyone else...and being a winner at 25/50 at PP is certainly helpful-but there are a hundred guys who can say the same thing b/c its true and another 1000 that can say it even if its not...find somehting to sell yourself...

wish you the best

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Of course U of M business school is good enough. They are consistently ranked in the top 10 in the nation. However, when many graduated in 2002 they had trouble finding jobs. Also, from the people I know in this field who have been working from 0-2 years the salaries talked about in this thread and the other one are exagerated.

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i think he was talking about undergrad...not business school...

and you are entitled to your opinion on the salaries, but i am stating the numbers of the bulge bracket firm i worked at.

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doing mba at nyu (part time) majoring in quant fin (courses in bonds/swaps, derivatives, volatility, aribtrage, etc). no work experience in finance. in my early 30s. i've talked with career counselors, alumni, etc., but in your opinion, what steps should i take to get my foot in the door? rate the difficuly. also, how important are grades (poker hurt my grades in a few classes).

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How much do the 3.0 vs. 3.5 vs. 3.8 vs. ~4.0 differences matter? Can you work in a field like engineering, get MBA, then join one of these firms? Will they still look at undergrad GPA? When they look at undergrad GPA do they look at transcript or just GPA?

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in general -- put poker on the resume, or keep it off the resume? and if the answer is keep it off, how about mentioning it in interviews?

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GPA generally helps get you in the door...3.5 vs 4 doesnt matter that much...u can definitely work as an engineer and then get your MBA...infact, MBA is a good way for anyone in any field change what they are doing (its not what you learn, its the opportunity to interview with the companies that come to the school)...they may look at your transcript...don't lie about GPA - could kill any career aspirations

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Rock, TY. Of course would never lie, just was wondering because they might give more room for lower GPA if they see B's were earned in Wireless Communications Systems or something not History of Dinosaurs.

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definitely put it in the interest section...if they ask about it, talk about it...people in finance love/play a lot of poker...if it is something you are successful with, talk about it without sounding like empire...IF they dont ask about it, be careful about bringing it up.

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to be honest, in sales/trading dont think it will matter that much...in banking/consulting, they care about GPA more and maybe they will notice...but this will not be the deal breaker...either they like you enough that it wont matter, or they wont before they get to your transcript

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not enough info to rate difficulty...if you are talking to career counslers, alumni, sending out as many resumes as you can, you are on the right track...grades do matter if you have nothing else differentiating you...good luck

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What i am wondering is whether all this trading,inv.banking etc is all that its cracked up to be? Of course i want to be filthy rich, but given my track record i just dont think its in my mindset to give up enjoyment to make money (for example i never turn down the pub to play online poker, when i do go down the pub ill spend a fair bit, often end out going to a stripjoint, and sometimes end out in a decent hotel to sleep for like 5 hours then go home). so part of me thinks, well, even if i could get a job (which i very much doubt) in trading would it really be for me? I'd never get any real enjoyment out of being constantly pressured, constantly working.

I think i have a chronic short term complex - i dont see the point in doing something for a year to have a good time the following year when i feel i can have a good time in both years anyway. I also think that you need to set a limit. If your always striving for more, you'll never enjoy what you've got imo. Sod it, ive got my health, a great family and a great bunch of friends. Im sure id be happy if i could get my accountancy qualification, rent with a few friends for a few years till my wage goes up and then hopefully put down a deposit on a house. Maybe pick up a alright looking wife a few years after that. Generally just enjoying myself, going away for weekends now and again. Part of me thinks that living the trading/inv.banking lifestyle would be intense in a great sense, but then part of me thinks what a waste of my 20s. If i need $x to enjoy myself and be happy, wtf is the point in earning $x+y if it means i hate getting up every morning. And yes, i know accountancy is very dull - ive seen my brother just qualify as one after 3 years, but id prefer a dull 9-5 job than have a job i couldnt stand 8-8.

also i think there is the social norm/pressure is very influential. it always comes across that the higher paid job you have the more successful youve been. im sure this is true, but getting in the mind of someone on a huge wage working his butt off, will he really be having as good time as its made out to be?

maybe ive just developed a fear of working hard. i think this is true. i dont ever do anything which is particular taxing nor means getting up in the mornings. pretty much nothing. for the last 3 years.

on a final note i think playing poker has ruined my concept of having to work hard to earn money. im like 'sod it, ill be able to make decent money somehow, something will come along', rather than, 'i need to work my butt off to be able to afford an awesome house with an awesome car living the high life'

meh, what a long post, just ive spent about 14 hours doing not a lot else other than filling out application forms and so its on my mind a lot. also im not trying to rinse accountancy, if i could get into a firm right now id grab it with both hands, just im wondering why everyone seems not go for it and think that trading equities or whatever is the best future for themselves.

ps. i write a lot better on my forms, just on internet forums i dont bother.

Re: Finance Job questions
 

ps. would i stand any chance even if i applied? i have no proper work experience bar 'financial assistant' for a friends company and my one hope is i organised and ran the largest poker tournament held in the uk (at the time). im majoring in Economics from a pretty decent university. id like to think id be good at interviews, but id need to go on some massive learning sessions about whatever division i went for.