live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

borgata 10-25 last night; the game was playing pretty tight until the villain sat down about an hour ago. he put ~20k on the table, and it quickly became apparent that the man was here to gamble. he was not utterly braindead (hence he shall hereafter be referred to as NUB), but he was dumb enough, and dangerous enough, that he was gonna either win or lose a lot of money. here are a few of the other hands he got involved in before my hand with him:

flop ATx checked around; turn makes a 3-spade board and sb fires 300, NUB calls; river o/s J and sb bets 500, NUB raises to 2k. sb calls with a 7-high flush, NUB shows KQ no spade.

flop 986, NUB bets 400, gets c/r'ed to 1400, he calls. turn is another 9, c/r'er leads 1k, NUB raises 2k more, c/r'er pushes for 6k total, NUB calls with T9. c/r'er's flopped straight holds up.

he also bet 500 on the river on a 4-diamond board with the 9d and paid off a c/r to 2k by the ace of trump. and just a couple hands before my hand came up, he put in 4k preflop with JJ and spiked a set to bust AA.



ok, sorry for the long preamble but i wanted to give all of you the same info i had: basically, he was ready, willing, and eager to put his money into play. so anyhow, we're 7-handed at the time, utg with a 3k stack limps, NUB limps on the button, i make it 200 straight from the sb with KK and 10k behind, utg and NUB call.

flop is 876 all spades, i have the K of spades. how should i proceed in the following situations:

scenario 1) i bet 350, utg folds, NUB makes it 1k to go. i do what? if i decide to play on, what card(s) would i like to see on the turn? what is my plan for the rest of the hand?

scenario 2) i check, utg bets 250, NUB makes it 750. i do what? if i decide to play on, what card(s) would i like to see on the turn? what is my plan for the rest of the hand?

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

Hey mike,

Both these scenario's are crappy spots to be in

scenario 1: call flop and proceed very cautiously. You want to see a spade or King. If you don't catch one, i'd be willing to check-fold the turn.

scenario 2: I actually like checking the flop better to control pot size. Given the action and the fact that we're now caught in the middle i think we need to fold.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

scenario 2 sucks, id really rather bet out here. from read on nub sounds like bet bet bet and if he raises just call down.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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from read on nub sounds like bet bet bet and if he raises just call down.

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Problem with this is we're quickly gonna find ourselves in a spot where we have to put all of our chips in the pot. If NUB raises flop and then bets pot on turn and river and we call, we'll be allin. Do you really want to put in 400bb's with an overpair on this board?

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

mike, OT, but how was the action/competition level and general crowdedness of the Borgata last night given the tournament? I meant to make it over to observe (no chance I was jumping into 10-25) but never left the 5/10 at the Taj.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

I think you gotta bet, I like a check better if you have red kk. I call any raise NUB makes. Give us a turn.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

The biggest problem we're facing here is that NUB has not been firing away and raising with air. He seems to be a LAG who overvalues moderate hands, but he's not in there unless he believes he's got the best of it. He's wrong often enough, but this is one hell of a coordinated flop.

So I'll take a stab:

1) I think it's decision time already. Your hand is strong in light of the Villain, but it will lose strength with a blank turn. I don't like calling here, because you're going to blank that turn 3 out of 4 times, and what happens then? Check/fold? Your entire stack will be at play very quickly.

So to me, it's raise or fold, and I actually lean toward mucking here. You're likely to have plenty of clear shots at NUB, especially if the table remains 7-handed for a while. But I also believe that you're ahead here quite often, with a pretty nice redraw. Making it 3500 could be delicious against this Villain.

Ultimately, I think raising = folding > calling.

2) Pretty easy muck, in my opinion. You've got UTG already willing to tangle on that uber-coordinated flop, and NUB is challenging him. It may seem weak, but again, I think NUB will offer some better spots HU compared to 3-way. Not that I mind 3-ways.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

Is the guy Sam, older guy with the elephant?

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

i dunno, to me it seems like if nub has TT[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] here hes going to go all the way with it, and we have him beat soo much more than he has us beat that i would really, really, really hate to lose value here.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

Is anything but calling in scenario 1 a viable option? I can't imagine folding or re-raising.

Scenario 2 is trickier but I think flat-calling is the best among the three. I don't think you need to put yourself in a tough spot though by checking, betting makes the later streets much easier to play.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

HE HAS AN ELEPHANT!? mike if the guy really had an elephant, what was it doing during all this?

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

#1: I would call and then check/call smaller or medium size bets on the next 2 streets if another straight card didn't come. And if a spade came, I would make a large overbet, unless it were a straight-flush card. I would play the same way in another scenario where you check, utg checks, and NUB bets, and just call and see what utg did. If he folded then continue to check/call if no spade or straight card came.

#2: Fold.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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mike, OT, but how was the action/competition level and general crowdedness of the Borgata last night given the tournament? I meant to make it over to observe (no chance I was jumping into 10-25) but never left the 5/10 at the Taj.

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action was decent, but there were also some very good players in the games, so you had to pick your spots. there were two 10-25s going last night, but after NUB left our game at 1 a.m. the table broke instantly. although i heard that the 25-50 they got going was playing pretty crazy.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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HE HAS AN ELEPHANT!? mike if the guy really had an elephant, what was it doing during all this?

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it was a baby elephant, they only needed to clear out two tables to make room. never say the borgata doesn't cater to its players.

(to gaash: guy was prob'ly in his mid-30s, didn't catch his name, said he was from virginia. no pachyderm.)

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

yeah, I figured some of the tourney attendees would be sitting at those stakes. Thanks for the reply.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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#1: I would call and then check/call smaller or medium size bets on the next 2 streets if another straight card didn't come. And if a spade came, I would make a large overbet, unless it were a straight-flush card. I would play the same way in another scenario where you check, utg checks, and NUB bets, and just call and see what utg did. If he folded then continue to check/call if no spade or straight card came.

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the consensus seems to be that leading the flop is best, and i agree. but you're the first to address my question about potential turn cards. the ace of spades would obviously be ideal; one of the two remaining kings would be nice too; i also wouldn't mind an offsuit deuce. not a lot of other cards are "safe" though. any 4, 5, 9, or T puts a 4-straight on board. a non-spade ace is not too good. do i want the board to pair? do i even really want to see another spade?

problem is i think he has a very wide range here, while my hand is pretty well-defined. once he puts in a flop raise, i have little doubt he's willing to play a 20k pot. i, on the other hand--well, i'm a wuss, so...not so much.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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problem is i think he has a very wide range here, while my hand is pretty well-defined. once he puts in a flop raise, i have little doubt he's willing to play a 20k pot. i, on the other hand--well, i'm a wuss, so...not so much.

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That is why I would rather exercise pot control by just check/calling all the way if I could and the board didn't get even more ugly. Plus if you check/call the flop, and utg then raises, you can now fold more confidently because he is more likely to do so with a hand that beats you than is NUB. The fact of the matter, despite having a K spade draw, is that the board in question is very dangerous for your hand.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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problem is i think he has a very wide range here, while my hand is pretty well-defined. once he puts in a flop raise, i have little doubt he's willing to play a 20k pot. i, on the other hand--well, i'm a wuss, so...not so much.


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then he wins.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

umm... I undertsnad people not ormally wanting to play a big pot and all.. but our hand is huge compared to his hand range. it seems he has top pair, maybe not even that good, maybe a raw spade, maybe Tx, etc. I am not really looking to fold this on the flop.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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problem is i think he has a very wide range here, while my hand is pretty well-defined. once he puts in a flop raise, i have little doubt he's willing to play a 20k pot. i, on the other hand--well, i'm a wuss, so...not so much.

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That is why I would rather exercise pot control by just check/calling all the way if I could and the board didn't get even more ugly. Plus if you check/call the flop, and utg then raises, you can now fold more confidently because he is more likely to do so with a hand that beats you than is NUB. The fact of the matter, despite having a K spade draw, is that the board in question is very dangerous for your hand.

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still will play a 16kish pot if he pots every street

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
problem is i think he has a very wide range here, while my hand is pretty well-defined. once he puts in a flop raise, i have little doubt he's willing to play a 20k pot. i, on the other hand--well, i'm a wuss, so...not so much.


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then he wins.

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u drama queen, gimme a break.
u act like you will never have a hand bigger than a pair on 678ssx.
PLZ.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

But the principle that Ray Zee has hammered here over time, that one should play your hand in such a way that one doesn't lose the most when behind but little when ahead, is to me, best implemented by check/calling and letting NUB bet off a goodly amount of money with only top pair or top pair plus a straight draw, or a one pair plus a bad flush draw. This makes up for the times when he actually flopped a hand that beats hero, assuming hero sees a showdown.

And if you are not looking to fold the flop, then you might as well push over his bet or raise to punish him for a hand hero beats with hero hopefully having outs for the flush in case he is beat on the flop. But to me, that is putting too much money in on the flop compared to the pot size at that point with a non-nut hand.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

I found this thread very interesting, and would love to hear the results.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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HE HAS AN ELEPHANT!? mike if the guy really had an elephant, what was it doing during all this?

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When it's his turn to act, he puts the elephant to his ear and it tells him what to do.

PACHENGA!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

Against this guy, i would very very happily put in my stack with black KK.
I like betting here, u bet, he raises to 1k, u call.
As long as the turn isnt a T or a 7 i CR allin.
He flopped a flush/set/straight...i got outs...
And i think he calls with a lot that you beat.
I think you lose wayyyyy too much value otherwise.

With such players you gotta stick it in there and be willing to gamble, waiting for a better spot is not on
Thats why playing against some1 who is willing to gamble is a very high variance game, and hence these guys get away with murder, because people dont want the [censored] variance that goes along with backing an overpair with 400bb's.

Such players prey on the fact that people are not comfortable backing a "marginal" hand with such a stack and hence will very willingly try and take the pot away from u.
Set the [censored] trap, bet, call raise...cr allin..he'll fall for it.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against this guy, i would very very happily put in my stack with black KK.
I like betting here, u bet, he raises to 1k, u call.
As long as the turn isnt a T or a 7 i CR allin.
He flopped a flush/set/straight...i got outs...
And i think he calls with a lot that you beat.
I think you lose wayyyyy too much value otherwise.

With such players you gotta stick it in there and be willing to gamble, waiting for a better spot is not on
Thats why playing against some1 who is willing to gamble is a very high variance game, and hence these guys get away with murder, because people dont want the [censored] variance that goes along with backing an overpair with 400bb's.

Such players prey on the fact that people are not comfortable backing a "marginal" hand with such a stack and hence will very willingly try and take the pot away from u.
Set the [censored] trap, bet, call raise...cr allin..he'll fall for it.

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I tend to agree with TBG here. This guy sounds like the type of player against whom I don't mind playing a big pot with OP's hand on this board . . . probably looking to get a big CR in on a safe turn to get it all in . . .

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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I tend to agree with TBG here. This guy sounds like the type of player against whom I don't mind playing a big pot with OP's hand on this board . . . probably looking to get a big CR in on a safe turn to get it all in . . .

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What exactly is a "safe" turn? Here are the cards that are not "safe":

Non-spade aces.
Any T, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, or 4.

That's 28 cards that present trouble. There is very likely not going to be a safe turn, and that's the trouble that Hero faces. Calling is an ugly option for that reason, and so he's got to decide if he wants to play a 20k pot right here.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

mike,

I like TBG's advice. If you're not going to do something like that, I think you should consider just calling preflop.

Re: live 10-25: very deep stack KK oop vs a lag
 

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Against this guy, i would very very happily put in my stack with black KK.
I like betting here, u bet, he raises to 1k, u call.
As long as the turn isnt a T or a 7 i CR allin.
He flopped a flush/set/straight...i got outs...
And i think he calls with a lot that you beat.
I think you lose wayyyyy too much value otherwise.

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hey tbg, i think bet/call, c/r all-in was exactly what i should've done.

[ QUOTE ]
With such players you gotta stick it in there and be willing to gamble, waiting for a better spot is not on
Thats why playing against some1 who is willing to gamble is a very high variance game, and hence these guys get away with murder, because people dont want the [censored] variance that goes along with backing an overpair with 400bb's.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're totally right. i felt like a huge pussy after this hand, and i basically posted it so that you or others would tell me what a vag i was.