Sklansky says...
 

It's sometimes good to slowplay AA or KK from early position... (or something to that effect).

I've read a lot of Sklansky books but everytime i see someone limp early on these forums with AA or KK i see most replies saying RAISE PF!

What i want to know is, do you ever limp in with AA or KK, when & why?

Curently i've got a tight table image and if i raise early (even 4BB) the table folds.

For deception value should i slow play some of these hands? Or do you all subscribe to the 'always raise' theory?

Re: Sklansky says...
 

Im only limping them if I KNOW someone will raise after me. Doing so otherwise would be setting yourself up for trouble when everyone limps in after you.

Even still it really gives your hand away if someone does raise after you. Only way id do this if I have a maniac at the table who too stupid to put me on such a hand.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

the only reason to limp with aa/kk pf is for deception. The standard play is to raise. Since we're playing at the micro limits, in general, we dont need to mix up our play too much.

The majority of players we play against are not observant. If we raise in early position, most of them dont see any difference than if we open raise from CO. You only need to mix up your play against observant, thinking opponants... Against random donks, taking a less EV root to mix up our play is usually just a waste of time.

Obviously its importamt not to become too easiliy readable. But as long as your raising range pf is more than aa/kk/qq/ak, then against your average player i see no reason to try and disguise AA by not raising it. I think Sklanksys advice is more targeted towards higher stakes where deception is key.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

Agree with danny8. In addition, it's a much more risky strategy at low stakes NL because you'll typically get lots of players limping after you and noone raising. Even if someone does raise, they often don't raise enough to limit the field - and if you limp reraise the majority of the table will know what you have.

You don't want to see a flop with 5 or 6 opponents against a big pair - you won't hit it hard very often, between them they'll have every draw covered and you're going to find it very hard to let your hand go. You'll win more often than any single one of them, but as a group, they'll still win more often than you will - and you care about your stack size, not their average stack size.

A much better strategy at low stakes NL is raising fairly loose, especially from LP. This disguises your big hands just as effectively while still allowing you to build a pot and limit the field, making them a lot more profitable.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

Good advice guys thanks. I have tried limping before only to find on occasion that everyone folds to the blinds anyway and i'm giving them the flop free.

I guess i should remind myself not everyone uses PT and is observant like you mention.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

Chubbers,

if every1 folds when you raise, then raise more hands....easy!

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chubbers,

if every1 folds when you raise, then raise more hands....easy!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is way better than limping with big pairs!

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agree with danny8. In addition, it's a much more risky strategy at low stakes NL because you'll typically get lots of players limping after you and noone raising. Even if someone does raise, they often don't raise enough to limit the field - and if you limp reraise the majority of the table will know what you have.

You don't want to see a flop with 5 or 6 opponents against a big pair - you won't hit it hard very often, between them they'll have every draw covered and you're going to find it very hard to let your hand go. You'll win more often than any single one of them, but as a group, they'll still win more often than you will - and you care about your stack size, not their average stack size.

A much better strategy at low stakes NL is raising fairly loose, especially from LP. This disguises your big hands just as effectively while still allowing you to build a pot and limit the field, making them a lot more profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed....I will limp occasionally if Ive been playing a few hundred hands with someone and I think they are observant. If you can get away from AA/KK post-flop to a scary board then you can limp but some people can't so I wouldn't suggest it then if you can not let those hands go post-flop.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

In the lower limit game, people often limp UTG w/AA KK. If and when there is a raise between UTG+1 and the BB, they repop them pretty good to isolate.

In the middle/higher levels, they are already wary of any limpers UTG. Either they want to limp in w/something like AJs or have AA/KK.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Curently i've got a tight table image and if i raise early (even 4BB) the table folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Find a new table. This shouldn't happen often at the micro limits.

If you ever do just limp pf with AA/KK you have to be prepared to lay it down. Donks won't do this, and they get unlimited action from sumone who flopped a set, and they are there thinking "haha he doesn't know I have an overpair".

AA/KK can be hard to play in an unraised pot. Imagine if you get a lot of action on a Jack high flop when you hold AA. Villian could have AJ and not stop to think that you have an overpair, or he could have a set. If you rasied big pf he's more likely to have a set, as he wouldn't give much action because he fears an overpair.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

I have been amazed at the number of times I've had QQ-AA slowrolled on me at NL25/50 6max. I will look down and find KQ or something on the button, will make a standard raise and get cold called by QQ-AA. They then make some little donk min. raise (usually on the turn). It's really been aggrevating me.

Back to topic I guess: I recommmend you never slowplay AA UNLESS a 90/40 is sitting on the button or something similar.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
What i want to know is, do you ever limp in with AA or KK, when & why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look through your poker tracker db and you'll see that a ridiculously large amount of your earnings are from overpairs and AK. I mean like almost all of your earnings are from that. You are losing massive value by not raising and playing as aggressivley as possible with these hands.

Keep tricky play for when you get to 1000nl and up.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

FWIW, if people are folding to your raises, you're probably not raising PF enough. There is a reason you should be raising hands like A6s, 98s; so you get action when you have AA, KK, etc.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

I'm normally sitting at around 16%/8% which i think is a fair PF agression %. If this is low though let me know. I'll continue to play AA&KK as suggested though. Just wondering if you guys ever mixed up your play... which (i believe is good advice) based on the above i shouldn't worry about at this low a limit.

Cheers all.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm normally sitting at around 16%/8% which i think is a fair PF agression %. If this is low though let me know. I'll continue to play AA&KK as suggested though. Just wondering if you guys ever mixed up your play... which (i believe is good advice) based on the above i shouldn't worry about at this low a limit.

Cheers all.

[/ QUOTE ]

16/8 is pretty tight. Find some more hands to raise with in LP, after loose limpers or when folded to you in LP. They probably won't notice that your range is tighter in EP and you'll get a lot more action on your good hands.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

Virtually never, though I will simply flat-call a raise sometimes in late postion against a megalomaniac in front of me.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm normally sitting at around 16%/8% which i think is a fair PF agression %. If this is low though let me know. I'll continue to play AA&KK as suggested though. Just wondering if you guys ever mixed up your play... which (i believe is good advice) based on the above i shouldn't worry about at this low a limit.

Cheers all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only 8% preflop agression, I'm running on 25/15... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
But hey I like agression on the tables.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

Doyle Brunson actually recommends limping in early and middle position with AA and KK if you don't have any action ahead of you.

But he prefaces that part of his books (SS and SS2) with the fact that you are playing 'good thinking players'.

Those aren't his exact words but I think you get the message.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

If I were you, I would find better tables and raise more in LP.

I run 18/13 btw.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
the only reason to limp with aa/kk pf is for deception. The standard play is to raise. Since we're playing at the micro limits, in general, we dont need to mix up our play too much.

The majority of players we play against are not observant. If we raise in early position, most of them dont see any difference than if we open raise from CO. You only need to mix up your play against observant, thinking opponants... Against random donks, taking a less EV root to mix up our play is usually just a waste of time.

Obviously its importamt not to become too easiliy readable. But as long as your raising range pf is more than aa/kk/qq/ak, then against your average player i see no reason to try and disguise AA by not raising it. I think Sklanksys advice is more targeted towards higher stakes where deception is key.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good post!

Re: Sklansky says...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What i want to know is, do you ever limp in with AA or KK, when & why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look through your poker tracker db and you'll see that a ridiculously large amount of your earnings are from overpairs and AK and sets . I mean like almost all of your earnings are from that. You are losing massive value by not raising and playing as aggressivley as possible with these hands.

Keep tricky play for when you get to 1000nl and up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice summary - something else to keep in mind is that Sklansky didn't write NLHTAP assuming that the reader is playing $25 NL. Use the concepts within that (and other) books at your own risk. David and Ed assume that you're playing vs. rational, thinking opponents that are capable of making fairly big laydowns. Obv a typical MSNLer that won't fold any piece of the board for any amount of money doesn't count, and making fancy plays to "take them off their bottom pair" is plain -EV.

ABC poker folks. ABC.

Re: Sklansky says...
 

I limp AA/KK about 50% of the time *if* I'm in the SB and it's folded to me. I have limped AA very very very rarely if there is a bad LAG to my left who's on a blind when I'm in LP who is almost certain to raise. (then I call and b-3bet all-in on pretty much any flop)

99% of the time I raise preflop with Aces - you only need to start mixing up your play if you are playing aganist observant opponents who think on at least level 1 that you have played lots against already - as this is very rarely the case with micro stakes it's far better to raise AA/KK every time.