why do people play limit hold em?
 

I always hear people say that in nl you can generate much larger edges for yourself and punich opponents etc etc. so why play limit?? please i dont wanna get flamed i dont want this to turn into a fight between limit and nl players. Im just making a statment ( if you will) about limit and nl. and how nl seems more profitable.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Firstly, I don't play limit at all.

Why do people play limit hold 'em? Several reasons come to mind.

1. Some people don't feel comfortable having an entire stack of chips at risk on one hand or one bad beat.

2. Limit is much more analytical/math oriented than NL, which is a hybrid science/art. This isn't to say that limit is 100% science, however.

3. You play more hands in limit poker (well, you're supposed to be tighter in NL anyways!) - some action junkies just want to play, period.

4. Specific to online play - limit is probably much easier to multi-table and grind out hands for extended periods of time. Again, I'm not saying that limit is a robotic game, but the decisions you are required to make are usually not as complex than in NL, and thus, you can handle more of them at once.

5. Practice. More hands played = more experience at hand reading. Limit players have a lot of potential to be successful at NL when they make the switch. I imagine it's harder to transisition to limit after playing NL poker.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Because a lot of the time this is the only game that a casino will spread. They have an interest in protecting the fish and the fish get punished much harder in NL than limit. This is also why a lot of the time buyins are capped at ridiculous amounts.

As for why would a good player play limit over no limit? Usually it's because they are uncomfortable with having their stack at risk on every single hand. Limit also allows you to be in the action much more often, be it drawing, betting, and raising. No limit is a game of waiting for a very profitable opportunity and exploiting it to the fullest extent.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Hi jordiepop,

When I first started, I played, NL cash games and tourneys exclusively. But after some time I transitioned to limit, and I enjoy it much more. I believe that I am the first person to respond to this post who prefers limit, and I will explain my rationale.

First, I assure you it has nothing to do with risking an entire stack on one hand. Poker sites offer games any where from NL games with a $5 buy-in to limit games with blinds of $100/$200. An astute gambler should be able to find a spread online he is comfortable with regardless of game type.

Second, Dodgball88 made a very valid statement about the analytical/math background of limit. Some hands in NL are extremely valuable because of the tremendous implied odds. In limit this is not the case. If every round is capped, an opponent still only puts in 12bb (or $24 in a $1/$2 game). Many people new to limit simply don't grasp this concept and how it impacts specific hands.

Third, I have found my personal variance to be lower in limit. Although, I am by no means an expert, my theory is that in NL a villian can play poorly, make bad calls and win my entire stack based on a suck out. Conversely, in limit if I am in the same situation of having very good, but not nut hand I can merely go for a cheap showdown. This means I get the bonus of relatively big pots when I have a great hand, and some protection to keep the pot smaller with marginal hands assuming my opponent is trying to make the pot large. Also, heads up I know exactly how much it will cost to draw a card since it can never cost me more than a single bet. Remember, the limited bet size affects your opponent as much as it does you.

Fourth, I am not a professional player so winning the most money per hour is not the most important thing to me. I play poker for the enjoyment, and I enjoy limit more. At the live casinos, there seems to be more talking, socializing at the low limit tables. None of the players there have any real chance of earning substantial money, but it is a fantastic way to spend an evening with some friends.

Fifth, I will not comment on which is more profitable because I don't consider myself an expert player in either. But, I do hope you will consider that for some people profit isn't the only thing to consider when selecting a poker game.

Just my two cents,

Leo

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

A large proprtion of many people's profits come from rakeback and bonus.

Playing limit clears bonuses quicker and generates much more rakeback - and since you can play more tables, this amount is increased further.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Regardless of all that you become a bit of a killer at NL if you learn Limit - I played NL first and then limit, I play a much better NL game since.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Dogballs and kimchi have pretty much summarised the reasons why I play limit.

Basically for me, limit is a rich and complex game and I enjoy it. There is definitely value to be had in other variants of the game since it can renew your poker spark, give you new perspective and be fun and profitable too. However I do feel that certain people are just more suited for certain games.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I can play limit on autopilot - Outs, pot odds, raise/fold/call.

In NL, if my mind wanders even for a few seconds, I can make a mistake that can cost me my entire stack.

Most of the time I like being able to play on autopilot. Particularly when I'm playing live with friends. I can shoot the bull, have a beer or two, and the most my friends can possibly loose to me is $50.00. Each. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But when I'm in the mood to play for money, or if I want to play poker, then I play NL.

I'm not saying limit isn't real poker. It is. But limit is a card game. Limit is fun. NL is war.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Limit lets fish play alot longer than NL. They can play alot more loosely which is what they like, and not go broke as fast.

Also quite often a noob's "call call call" mentality can be technically correct in a very loose game with large pots.

So fish lose their money a dribble at a time, to good players and to the rake.

As for good players, limit involves alot fewer "really tough" decisions than NL. A large portion of the time there is a clear correct way to play a hand (full ring anyway, shorthanded and head's up is a different story). Sure there are gray areas and hands that can be played slightly different, but they are worth a bet or two here or there (and they of course add up long run).

This enables a good player to play very "mechanically" and generate a profit over the long run. This is why with the aide of software programs people easily 9+ table limit tables.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing limit clears bonuses quicker and generates much more rakeback - and since you can play more tables, this amount is increased further.

[/ QUOTE ]
... which in turn makes limit a great game to both, build your bankroll and learn some of the most important basics (odds'n'outs).
Furthermore, you encounter spots where counter-intuitive play is more profitable than straight forward play, which also deepens your understanding of the game.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Before explaining my preference for limit over no-limit hold'em, I want to say that I play both and generally enjoy both. I also play other forms of poker and enjoy them as well.

However, I tend to favor limit hold'em over NL because I find it to be easier to play. It may well be that I lack the people reading skills necessary for NL play. Or maybe I am too easily read myself.

When I play limit, I'm much more likey to push small edges when I have them, and I enjoy that facet of the game. In NL, I tend to let many small edges go and wait for the large ones. I'm basically a NL nut peddler. Whereas, I'm actually a bit loose in a limit game.

And the difference is not the amount of money risked. It's possible to lose your stack almost as quickly in limit as no-limit. If you're playing properly rolled, this shouldn't be an issue.

All that said, I like to play where the games are fun and profitable. If the NL games look good, I'll play them happily.

I only started playing poker in 2000. No limit hold'em cash games were hard to find online and non-existent in live card rooms. Where will poker be in another 5 years? I don't know. In any event, I feel I'm pretty well situated for whatever direction poker happens to go in next.

My suggestion is for people to learn to play both structures. They are very different games.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

This is particularly true for me as well. I revert back to Limit once an awhile for a NL break/recharge.

One of the first things I am keenly aware of is that I cannot protect a made hand in Limit and I am frequently outdrawn. When I get back to the NL table after these sessions, you can be sure that my made hands will be well protected.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3. You play more hands in limit poker (well, you're supposed to be tighter in NL anyways!) - some action junkies just want to play, period.

[/ QUOTE ]
according to Jen Harman In SSII you need to play tighter in limit than in no limit. lower implied odds for lower quality hands.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I prefer to play no limit on the internet simply because it's more profitable. When I play poker on the internet, I'm not thinking about having fun. I'm thinking about my winnings per hour, and I would need to play out of my bankroll to play limit on the internet with the same BB/hour rate as the no limit games I play.

When I play live, though, I prefer limit. This is for several reasons.

-Live no limit tables tend to dry up quickly. It's a nuisance to have to drive for an hour to get to the game, and then have the game break up after 2 hours because all of the fish have run out of money...especially if I haven't doubled up yet.

-There more action in a live limit game than any no limit or spread limit game I've played. I'll be honest. I get bored in live games because I can't multi-table. While I probably see fewer flops playing limit, depending on the texture of the table, I see a lot more showdowns as well.

-It's easier to look like a donkey in a limit game. I want my opponent to think I'm a donkey, and boy do I look like one at times when I try to take advantage of small EV+ situations. This works to my advantage in the long run.

-The action is faster in a limit game. The dealer isn't constantly being asked to count the pot, and people don't take five minutes to make a decision. It's especially easier for me, as I count bets as they are put into the pot so I don't have to slow down the game on the turn by counting the pot.

-Finally, as another poster said, limit hold 'em is automatic. I don't have any difficult decisions playing limit simply because most of these difficult decisions are actually even value decisions that will work out not making or losing any money in the long run.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A large proprtion of many people's profits come from rakeback and bonus.

Playing limit clears bonuses quicker and generates much more rakeback - and since you can play more tables, this amount is increased further.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a large part of why I prefer limit. I think that if you take bonus/consideration into account, you'll always have a much higher $/hr rate at limit.

my main reason I prefer limit tho is because I suck at NL [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I'm an action junkie. Betting and Raising is more fun than pot control.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

at the lower levels especially, it can get very annoying playing with ppl who constantly bluff all-in. its nice when you have them crushed, but most of the time you've got something like top pair, and there's no way to know if they've got second pair or two pair, because they play everything from second pair on up exactly the same.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I find it mad that you all see limit as a better live game. I live in Ireland and it's almost impossible to find one at all. Yet, you'll find NL games going on everywhere.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

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Your Avatar is awesome..i laughed so hard....

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always hear people say that in nl you can generate much larger edges for yourself and punich opponents etc etc. so why play limit?? please i dont wanna get flamed i dont want this to turn into a fight between limit and nl players. Im just making a statment ( if you will) about limit and nl. and how nl seems more profitable.

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I play limit because I can't afford too many large fluctuaions in my bankroll. I have been prone to tilt in the past, and this would be disastrous in a game that needs super tight control like NL.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

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I find it mad that you all see limit as a better live game. I live in Ireland and it's almost impossible to find one at all. Yet, you'll find NL games going on everywhere.

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Keep in mind that one of the biggest reasons for this, as far as I'm concerned, is that I've been stuck at too many no limit tables where there is one guy who always has to stop the action to count the pot, to count his opponent's chip stacks, and to make a decision. More often than not, this guy doesn't even know anything about pot odds anyway. He's just holding up the game, and I prefer prefer a game where I can get in a guaranteed dozen hands an hour.

There is also a reason I forgot to mention as well. In No Limit, a player can gain a certain advantage at times by just being aggressive. In limit, it's all about pot odds. When I play on the internet, there is always at least a couple of other players who know how to calculate pot odds, and that makes the games more difficult to beat. When I play live, I oftentimes go months without seeing a player in a limit game that knows how to calculate pot odds. I forgot to mention it before, but this is a huge reason why I prefer live limit games over no limit games. These games are FUN.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
at the lower levels especially, it can get very annoying playing with ppl who constantly bluff all-in. its nice when you have them crushed, but most of the time you've got something like top pair, and there's no way to know if they've got second pair or two pair, because they play everything from second pair on up exactly the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the players who make NL fun! It only takes one call to bust 'em. Make it a good one:)

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

In no particular order, and varying degrees of importance:

1) One of the biggest reasons I haven't seen mentioned yet is that in many casinos, Limit is the only game spread. In my area of western WA, this is the case. Nearest live NLHE game (and it isn't a true NL game; it has a cap, so it's really a big-range spread limit game) is over two hours away.

2) More experience playing limit, therefore much more comfortable in a limit game. A player may be competent at NLHE and will play NL sometimes, but knows he is better at limit, and will play there more often because he knows he has a bigger edge over competition.

3) The games reward different skill sets. I find that many NL players find limit rote/mathematical/formulaic/boring. And the perception is valid for them. Many limit players (myself among them), OTOH, enjoy the small nuances of good limit play which garner a small bet here, a stolen blind there, etc.

Those are my main reasons; game availability, and the fact that when I DO have both choices available (when I'm in Vegas or SoCal), I know I'm a better limit player. My NL forays are mainly restricted to the occasional tournament (which I treat primarily as a change of pace and a learning opportunity) and home NL cash games for very low stakes. Interestingly, I've done quite well in both forums. Am reading NLHTAP & HOH, and will probably make a transition to live NL ring games sometime in the forseeable future...who knows, I might answer this thread completely differently a year from now.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

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Regardless of all that you become a bit of a killer at NL if you learn Limit - I played NL first and then limit, I play a much better NL game since.

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This caught my attention, would be interested in seeing an expanded discussion of this insight. I myself am a limit player considering a move to NLHE. Might be worth a new thread.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I am also considering switching from limit to NL now that I have gone from .50/1 FR to 5/10 and 10/20 SH and am still maintaining about a 2.2BB/hr winrate over 50khands. I originally told myself that as soon as I got 25k hands in limit I would switch to NL, then to stud, then to Omaha, but once I figured out the nuances of limit there was already another level to move up to, etc (and 5/10 SH is certainly not the pinnacle of poker learning by any means). So now after about 150k hands on limit from my first hand in May of 2005 to now I'm ready to switch and see what all the fuss is about.

That being said, I think limit poker can only be played robotically at full ring tables for small stakes. Certainly when you get to 5/10 on up, playing shorthanded, pot odds are much less important than hand reading, image, 2nd level thinking, etc (though the math geeks think of all that stuff in mathematical terms as well wrt game theory, hand ranges, etc.)

just saying, if you think limit is just about figuring out if there is enough money in the pot to call to hit your flush draw on the river, you'll be killed at midstakes games, especially shorthanded.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Yeah, i have switched to Limit just a month ago, to learn it in the first place. I think this game is better for me because i too often make a mistake in NL which costs me my entire stack. I'm playing 0,5/1 at the moment and i'm about to go up to 1/2. When is the right time to look for rakeback? I have never tried it and always though that the stakes i play are too low to get money with rakeback.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I started with SNGs and $25 NL full ring and lost half my deposit. I had a couple of good sessions at live 3/6 and decided to play limit to even out the variance from playing MTTs. After 3000 hands of .25/.50 and doing pretty well, I started playing some NL 6 max cash games. I'm doing pretty well and noticed my play has greatly improved, due in part to playing limit.

I'm still undecided as to which form of cash game I'll play. As for why I like limit:

1. I can play mechanically, helpful when I'm tired from working all day.

2. If I hit a draw on the flop, often times I get the odds to call to the river.

3. As a beginner, I'm not worried about losing my stack to a bad beat.

4. It's fun to jam the pot with 2 overs, nut flush draw, gut shot nut str8 draw and get there.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

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I started with SNGs



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Hey Hey ... Leave SNGs out of this discussion, they are a different beast alltogether

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1. I can play mechanically, helpful when I'm tired from working all day.


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And on the same note, this applies equally to sng's, they are mindless robotic and very very low variance.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]

As for why would a good player play limit over no limit? Usually it's because they are uncomfortable with having their stack at risk on every single hand. Limit also allows you to be in the action much more often, be it drawing, betting, and raising. No limit is a game of waiting for a very profitable opportunity and exploiting it to the fullest extent.

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There is not a single CORRECT statement in this entire paragraph.

There's not a single NL player who is afraid to bet his stack on a single hand and who IS GOOD.

Playing limit you should play a lot tighter and be "in action" less often than in NL because impled pot odds are not as great, so you'll need to show down the best hand more often on average.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing limit you should play a lot tighter and be "in action" less often than in NL because impled pot odds are not as great, so you'll need to show down the best hand more often on average.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an important point often overlooked. Poor/inexperienced limit players play too many hands and go too far with them on the basis that it won't cost much to see the flop or the next card etc. (death by a thousand leaks)

The big difference in NL is that (generally) preflop bets are small relative to stack sizes and that "getting lucky" on the flop can result in you winning a large amount. Another difference is the ability to manipulate pot/bet sizes. You simply can't do that in limit.

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

I play no limit, but I Do enjoy a good headsup/Shorthanded limit game... I honestly think headsup limit poker is the most skillful form of Hold-em you can get...

YOu can take the best NL headsup player, and a complete novice can take him out in 1 hand... Match is over...

However, you cannot do this against the best HU Limit players... You have to PROVE your victory against them.. THe match will not be settled in one hand, it will be settled over various amounts of hands and situations...

Limit requires more skill of the game of texas holdem...

No-limit requires you play the PLAYER, and the game is just a backup plan...

...These are just my opinions....

Re: why do people play limit hold em?
 

Before the poker boom, or before there was internet poker, there was almost nothing but limit spread at casinos. Thus the older players have tended to stick with limit, rather than learn a different skill set.