Stars Update #2
 

For those of you who didn't read my previous thread, use search and you'll see why I'm posting this.

I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge(the company that was banned by like every site) is including Stars on it's list of sites no longer accepting US players. I immediately shot off an e-mail to some people at FTP and Stars to notify them.

I was told that this info was "misinformation".

Accordingly, I get the feeling that a lot of wrong information towards Stars in the past two weeks has been malicious in intent. I also got a e-mail from a friend of mine who is a big affiliate saying that one of the FTP Affiliates had been promoting the fact that Stars was gone in order to try and lure more clients into his rakeback business. I believe he was told to stop from FTP, but could be off base with that. Things like this may be where alot of the wrong info has come from.

All information that I have is telling me that Stars has finished getting a statement from their lawyer in writing regarding the issue at hand, and should be issueing a statement later this week. I think the only remaining issue at hand is discussing their plans with the political figures of the countries that they reside in, which obviously will be a very important meeting.

Just trying to keep you guys up to date. If you have something specific to say, feel free to PM. I'll try to keep up with the thread.

-ZBT

Re: Stars Update #2
 

So you are basically saying that if they get good feedback on extradition isssues they will stay in business?

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you are basically saying that if they get good feedback on extradition isssues they will stay in business?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not "saying" anything. I have never had this told to me in so many words.

But that is my feeling of the whole situation.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge(the company that was banned by like every site) is not including Stars on it's list of sites no longer accepting US players.

[/ QUOTE ]

For my understanding the above put a little different but hopefully more clear but I concede maybe not:

I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge (the company that was banned by like every site) has list of sites no longer accepting US players. PokerStars is not on that list.

Not trying to be a nit, just wanting to make sure I understand. Thanks for the info.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge(the company that was banned by like every site) is not including Stars on it's list of sites no longer accepting US players.

[/ QUOTE ]

For my understanding the above put a little different but hopefully more clear but I concede maybe not:

I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge (the company that was banned by like every site) has list of sites no longer accepting US players. PokerStars is not on that list.

Not trying to be a nit, just wanting to make sure I understand. Thanks for the info.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I fixed my double negative above. I noticed this, and thought I already fixed it..Oh well. Thanks.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

Like I said in another thread I started but got moved, they have to be preparing to dump all american players anyway.

Party has already started the process, cutting off transfers, making plans to pro-rate bonuses, cancelling tournaments etc.

Stars has to do this too. On Friday, Bush will be signing this law, and if Pokerstars accepts one deposit after that point, they will be breaking this law.

So they obviously have to decide if this law applies to them.

People keep posting, *maybe they will just wait the 270 days to see what the restrictions and regulations are*

No, thats not the point. Either they are going to continue to accept deposits, or they are not. They aren't going to keep accepting deposits, then in 270 days decide its too hard because of regulations and stop.

By that point it will be too late and they will have already broken the law anyway, so what does it matter? The only decision is *does this law apply to us?*

In fact, by Friday it will be too late, so they better get their act together and decide soon.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge(the company that was banned by like every site) is not including Stars on it's list of sites no longer accepting US players.

[/ QUOTE ]

For my understanding the above put a little different but hopefully more clear but I concede maybe not:

I received a PM on Saturday telling me that PokerEdge (the company that was banned by like every site) has list of sites no longer accepting US players. PokerStars is not on that list.

Not trying to be a nit, just wanting to make sure I understand. Thanks for the info.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I fixed my double negative above. I noticed this, and thought I already fixed it..Oh well. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]


That correction you made makes all the difference in the world. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the update.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said in another thread I started but got moved, they have to be preparing to dump all american players anyway.

Party has already started the process, cutting off transfers, making plans to pro-rate bonuses, cancelling tournaments etc.

Stars has to do this too. On Friday, Bush will be signing this law, and if Pokerstars accepts one deposit after that point, they will be breaking this law.

So they obviously have to decide if this law applies to them.

People keep posting, *maybe they will just wait the 270 days to see what the restrictions and regulations are*

No, thats not the point. Either they are going to continue to accept deposits, or they are not. They aren't going to keep accepting deposits, then in 270 days decide its too hard because of regulations and stop.

By that point it will be too late and they will have already broken the law anyway, so what does it matter? The only decision is *does this law apply to us?*

In fact, by Friday it will be too late, so they better get their act together and decide soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to go too deep into this, but pretty much every conversation I've had with anyone at any site says this is completely 100% not true.

The sites have several concerns.

#1 is legal. LEGALLY. The decision must be made by Friday.

But Running a close #2 is money. If the countries they live in are not going to extradite them, then the next worry is that they will not be able to get money to their players. THIS will NOT be decided until the regulations are written.

I think there is a VERY good chance you might see FTP and Stars stick around until the regulations are written. If the regulations allow Neteller/Easy Work Around...they will stay open.

If they do not, they will fold. Quickly.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said in another thread I started but got moved, they have to be preparing to dump all american players anyway.

Party has already started the process, cutting off transfers, making plans to pro-rate bonuses, cancelling tournaments etc.

Stars has to do this too. On Friday, Bush will be signing this law, and if Pokerstars accepts one deposit after that point, they will be breaking this law.

So they obviously have to decide if this law applies to them.

People keep posting, *maybe they will just wait the 270 days to see what the restrictions and regulations are*

No, thats not the point. Either they are going to continue to accept deposits, or they are not. They aren't going to keep accepting deposits, then in 270 days decide its too hard because of regulations and stop.

By that point it will be too late and they will have already broken the law anyway, so what does it matter? The only decision is *does this law apply to us?*

In fact, by Friday it will be too late, so they better get their act together and decide soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

My take is that in the opinion of the U.S. government, Stars has already violated U.S. laws. Witness the arrests that have taken place of foreign execs mentioned in the thread about the Barron's article among many other places.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Witness the arrests that have taken place of foreign execs mentioned in the thread about the Barron's article

[/ QUOTE ]


Still this is unclear, these are sports betting sites and they used the phone to take bets (if not worse)

Re: Stars Update #2
 

My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that this is against every single thing they have said, why do you feel this way?

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said in another thread I started but got moved, they have to be preparing to dump all american players anyway.

Party has already started the process, cutting off transfers, making plans to pro-rate bonuses, cancelling tournaments etc.

Stars has to do this too. On Friday, Bush will be signing this law, and if Pokerstars accepts one deposit after that point, they will be breaking this law.

So they obviously have to decide if this law applies to them.

People keep posting, *maybe they will just wait the 270 days to see what the restrictions and regulations are*

No, thats not the point. Either they are going to continue to accept deposits, or they are not. They aren't going to keep accepting deposits, then in 270 days decide its too hard because of regulations and stop.

By that point it will be too late and they will have already broken the law anyway, so what does it matter? The only decision is *does this law apply to us?*

In fact, by Friday it will be too late, so they better get their act together and decide soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Silly. Of course the law applies to them. They are just putting the DOJ on a range of hands, counting their outs, and determining the EV.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

ZB,

He posted in a thread in the zoo that he had read, but couldn't locate now, a report that Barclay's would be ending their banking relationship with neteller. There is no confirmation of same, and no reason either that Barclay's would take that position until the regs are written, if even then, since they are 1 step removed from funding the sites, although of course the actual bank that allows neteller to do so.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that this is against every single thing they have said, why do you feel this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly because of reports like this:

http://www.majorwager.com/index.cfm?...how_column=289



Neteller's bank accounts at Barclays rumoured to be shut down if Bush signs



The are rumours abound that Barclays will be shutting down Netellers accounts when and if President Bush signs the Internet Gaming Prohibition Bill. Sources have told MajorWager that Neteller has decided to cease US operations should Bush sign the Bill. Neteller was contacted and has yet to respond to these rumours at this time.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

i think the law takes effect 10 days after Bushy signs the Bill. If they were already preparing, or always had some contingency plans in place 10 days would probably be enough time to take care of things. Hoping stars sticks it out though at least until they undoomswitch me.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

Coy,

I saw that report as well, but give it little credence. It's just like all the crap that Gambling911 puts out. That is not to say it can't be true, but just that there is no major news source for same.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that this is against every single thing they have said, why do you feel this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly because of reports like this:

http://www.majorwager.com/index.cfm?...how_column=289



Neteller's bank accounts at Barclays rumoured to be shut down if Bush signs



The are rumours abound that Barclays will be shutting down Netellers accounts when and if President Bush signs the Internet Gaming Prohibition Bill. Sources have told MajorWager that Neteller has decided to cease US operations should Bush sign the Bill. Neteller was contacted and has yet to respond to these rumours at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what to say about that, other than it's a very poorly written PARAGRAPH from a source that means absolutely nothing. I'd say it could be true, but if we believed every article that looked as unprofessional as that, we'd all be in trouble.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you are basically saying that if they get good feedback on extradition isssues they will stay in business?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I've done some research on Wikipedia and it looks like the Isle of Man (where Stars is based) is in a different category than Gibraltar (where Party is based) in terms of its relationship with the United Kingdom. Whereas Gibraltar is a British territory, the Isle of Man is not technically part of the UK but instead something called a "crown dependancy".

Admittedly, I don't understand the nuances of all of this stuff, but the upshot seems to be that the Isle of Man is closer to being a sovereign, independent state than Gibraltar is. Therefore, the fact that Gibraltar-based companies felt that the UK would not protect them sufficiently against extradition does not necessarily mean that an Isle of Man company will reach the same conclusion.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that this is against every single thing they have said, why do you feel this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly because of reports like this:

http://www.majorwager.com/index.cfm?...how_column=289



Neteller's bank accounts at Barclays rumoured to be shut down if Bush signs



The are rumours abound that Barclays will be shutting down Netellers accounts when and if President Bush signs the Internet Gaming Prohibition Bill. Sources have told MajorWager that Neteller has decided to cease US operations should Bush sign the Bill. Neteller was contacted and has yet to respond to these rumours at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what to say about that, other than it's a very poorly written PARAGRAPH from a source that means absolutely nothing. I'd say it could be true, but if we believed every article that looked as unprofessional as that, we'd all be in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I said it was my opinion.

Neteller already has a list of banned countries and I believe US will be added.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

Nate,

The status of the Isle of Man is such that it is not a member of the EU. So how and if they are covered by the WTO as in whether under the umbrella of the UK or not, I don't know.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

CoyRoy,

You are a n00b poster and a search of your posting history shows that your very first post in these forums was one negative towards neteller's prospects in the light of this legislation, and that all your posts are in this specific forum. You seem to have an axe to grind with neteller, and your impartiality can I think be fairly called into question. I don't know what your interests are, as in whether you work for a competing firm or something, but you do seem to have a hidden agenda.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
CoyRoy,

You are a n00b poster and a search of your posting history shows that your very first post in these forums was one negative towards neteller's prospects in the light of this legislation, and that all your posts are in this specific forum. You seem to have an axe to grind with neteller, and your impartiality can I think be fairly called into question. I don't know what your interests are, as in whether you work for a competing firm or something, but you do seem to have a hidden agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you are insane.

Please show me a post where I have an axe to grind with anyone.

If Neteller goes down, so goes my main processor.

I may be a new poster to this particular site but I'm 40 years old and probably put in more hours of poker than most everyone here. I feel confident with my opinions and I resent your attacks.

If you don't agree with my opinion, say so, don't insult me with your paranoid "agenda" statements.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

I apologize if I was off base with my insinutations. I will instead put it down to you running scared and being terrified whenever any uncorroborated net site say's "boo" about neteller.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you are basically saying that if they get good feedback on extradition isssues they will stay in business?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I've done some research on Wikipedia and it looks like the Isle of Man (where Stars is based) is in a different category than Gibraltar (where Party is based) in terms of its relationship with the United Kingdom. Whereas Gibraltar is a British territory, the Isle of Man is not technically part of the UK but instead something called a "crown dependancy".

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont know if I'm being too obvious here or not, but Netteller is also based in the Isle of Man, fwiw.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

Why would Barclay's end their relationship with Neteller. Neteller has alot of non-internet gambling site business.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

While again I have no reason to believe that stuff about Barclay's terminating their relationship with neteller (and that would only matter if neteller can't find another banking relationship), Barclay's might be worried that they would be identified as the financial institution funding gambling sites, with neteller being viewed as a super account aggregator or something while Barclay's is the real underlying bank. However even then, that is just the same as if you transferred funds from a US bank to a canadian one you had, and then from that one to a poker site. That other bank is still one step removed, not on US soil, and thus not subject to the transactions prohibitions of the legislation.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

Thank you for pointing out his agenda. I was getting a little worried. Is it just me or is Neteller our only real saving grace? How does FTP claim that business will continue as normal without Neteller or Firepay?

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think the law takes effect 10 days after Bushy signs the Bill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. The law takes effect the minute that Bush signs it.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]

Stars has to do this too. On Friday, Bush will be signing this law, and if Pokerstars accepts one deposit after that point, they will be breaking this law.

[/ QUOTE ]


They are probably technically 'breaking the law' just as much now by accepting deposits as they will be after the bill is signed.


If Stars chooses to continue to do business with the U.S. they will be well within their rights to do so according to the W.T.O. decision.

The U.S. is not supposed to be prohibiting internet-gambling or transactions in the first place according to the W.T.O.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]


On Friday, Bush will be signing this law, and if Pokerstars accepts one deposit after that point, they will be breaking this law.


[/ QUOTE ]

This may be quibbling but I believe that the new law will make it illegal for them to accept wagers. I do not think it is illegal for them to accept a deposit.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
but you do seem to have a hidden agenda.


[/ QUOTE ]

You got to expect a lot of short sellers in these stocks hit hardest to be doing their part to keep the decline going. Spreading rumours is a big part of that.

Once the stocks rebound and they have to buy it back, they will never be seen here again posting, since they probably don't even play poker.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

It is exactly the other way around.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

Sportsbetting, every one.

PStars has always had an amazing number of functions run from the US however.

Let\'s make it a wager, then
 

I'll take that bet if you care to offer it.

Neteller will not shut off the US business the day the Safe Ports Act is signed by President Bush, and I'll spot you an additional 5 business days.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would Barclay's end their relationship with Neteller. Neteller has alot of non-internet gambling site business.

[/ QUOTE ]
This has been brought up many times, name me 5 places I can spend my neteller dollars on merchandise, not gambling sites.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
While again I have no reason to believe that stuff about Barclay's terminating their relationship with neteller (and that would only matter if neteller can't find another banking relationship), Barclay's might be worried that they would be identified as the financial institution funding gambling sites, with neteller being viewed as a super account aggregator or something while Barclay's is the real underlying bank. However even then, that is just the same as if you transferred funds from a US bank to a canadian one you had, and then from that one to a poker site. That other bank is still one step removed, not on US soil, and thus not subject to the transactions prohibitions of the legislation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I worked in a bank for a few years in the 80's. Banks do not like gray areas. If their counsel feels that having a company is primarily focused on only gambling transactions, they will close the relationsship with the "rogue" company.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]

This has been brought up many times, name me 5 places I can spend my neteller dollars on merchandise, not gambling sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't know anywhere to spend neteller $ that's not gambling related, but there's certainly places that aren't actual sites. 2p2, PokerTracker, PokerAce, and most of the other poker software sites allow Neteller payments. Granted I doubt that helps our case much, but it's not "just" gambling sites.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that this is against every single thing they have said, why do you feel this way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly because of reports like this:

http://www.majorwager.com/index.cfm?...how_column=289



Neteller's bank accounts at Barclays rumoured to be shut down if Bush signs



The are rumours abound that Barclays will be shutting down Netellers accounts when and if President Bush signs the Internet Gaming Prohibition Bill. Sources have told MajorWager that Neteller has decided to cease US operations should Bush sign the Bill. Neteller was contacted and has yet to respond to these rumours at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller is a publicly traded company, and assuming UK regs are roughly similar to the US, they would be obligated to report something like this if it were more than a rumor. Their official statement as I understand it wrt US customers is business as usual until after the 270 days when they see what the banking regs are.

Re: Stars Update #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion unfortunately is that Neteller will cease US business as soon as the bill is signed into law.

[/ QUOTE ]

The US Treasury has 270 days from the signing to write the banking rules to impliment the bill. Neteller has said that it will do nothing until it sees those rules.