Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

600NL 5 handed

It's folded to me in the SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I have $821 and the BB covers. BB is pushing everybody around but isn't bad from what I've seen. Just very aggro both preflop and postflop.

I make it $22 and the BB 3-bets to $38, I call.

Flop comes: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, should I bet about the pot?

He bets $75, I check-raise to $150. He calls.

Turn is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I check, he bets $250. I fold.

Please let me know what you would do and why.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

your flop c/r is godawful

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

You got the first part of:

Please let me know what you would do and why.

Can you tell me the why part?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Guido, why don't you explain why you did put in the min c/r? Yves is right about it.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Because you fold out very few better hands, and put yourself in a terrible position on the turn, with a huge pot and a likely, but not certain, losing hand. Basically this turn is a spot that you should never put yourself in, it's almost meaningless to comment cause you should make sure you're never in this position.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

An important part of being a winning player a mid stakes is to think ahead in the hand, and make sure you get betsizes and and pot size adequate for what you want to accomplish. This includes not inflating the pot OOP witha weak hand and two streets to go.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Ok, well just saying it's godawful doesn't really help me to understand why. I know this is a limit play and I don't use it very often.

I c/r so when he calls, I know he has a better hand. I can also bet but he would call a lot of hands so I still wouldn't know where I stand. What if I bet the pot and he calls? Do I fire again on the turn? If he raises, do I fold? The C/R is such a strong move that he will only call with a better hand.

Call, call call is too expense and he would continue betting, like I said he was very aggro.

So those were my reasons to make a C/R. Please explain to me why you prefer betting. How much you would bet and what you would do when he calls or raises. Also I would like to know the reasons behind your actions.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Check/call is definitely best on this flop. Yes, you put yourself in a position to get outplayed, but really, you don't have a strong hand here at all, most reraising hands beat you. Frankly, a convincing case can be made for check/folding this flop.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

At least with betting you're not inflating the pot and not asking to get outplayed. If someone raises, easy muck. But I'd probably check-call and see how they play the turn. Why are you playing this hand so hard?

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Hi ArturiusX,

What if you are very sure he's going to bet the turn? Do you still check call the flop?

Why I'm playing this hand so hard? Well, if I bet he will raise most hands, even worse hands. If he calls he calls most turns too. So bet, bet isn't going to tell me a lot either. Check-call, check-call is probably even more expense than a check-raise on the flop. I want to know where I stand and that's why I check-raise the flop. Because he called I knew I was probably far behind and I could check fold the turn safely.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

I agree check-folding is a good option too but we were all folding way too many hands against this opponent. That's why I tried to make a stand.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

This is wrong in so many ways. Given your description of villian, folding pf before you raise isn't bad at all. Call me a nit if you want, but I don't want to play A8s OOP against a good aggressive player HU. When you get reraised, you should have folded or 4-bet(rarely), what were you hoping to hit?

The flop c/r is total spew. Especially if you plan on c/f the turn when you improve. If you insist on calling PF, this would be a good spot to call a flop bet and reevaluate turn. Given the texture of this board and his PF action, c/f would be ok as well.

Given your c/r, why not make a play on this turn. He could definitely lay down a better hand, you have outs, and you might be ahead in the first place. I don't necessarily mind the fold, but if you're going to play this hand the way you did, why not crai on the turn? You've probably got some fold equity and definitely have outs.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given your description of villian, folding pf before you raise isn't bad at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOOOOOOOOOL

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given your description of villian, folding pf before you raise isn't bad at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOOOOOOOOOL

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF do you think the long term EV of this hand OOP against an aggressive opponent is? Do you care to elaborate at all on your rude remark?

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Nope, sorry. But it's not close.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

The mini-cr is bad because of more than one thing.

First of all, you make your hand which got some showdown value to a complete bluff. Instead of letting KQ and other worse hands bet into you and get some value out of your hand when ahead (and try to get away from it when you are behind) you bluff with a hand that might be the best. A good player probably will not call with worse made hands if they don't have a ton of outs.

Secondly, you get no clue about his hand this way. He might float with pair+draw-kind of hands or even with nothing just to bluff you later. The big problem is that he probably knows when he is ahead, but you will never know.

Especially when you check the turn, he probably can be pretty much 100% sure about what you've got. The only thing he could put you on instead of Ax is some kind of draw. If he bets big, none of these hands can call.

I would check-call, then bet-fold turn. If we get to the river, I would probably check-call if the draws misses and check-fold if the hit.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

I think folding A8s pf against an aggro villain is not good at all. If it was A8o, you may have a case. But given stack sizes and villain's aggression, this is always a raise. As everyone said, flop checkraise is the worst of all possible worlds. C/C flop seems fine, and I'd be wary the rest of the hand about bloating the pot out of position.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding A8s pf against an aggro villain is not good at all. If it was A8o, you may have a case. But given stack sizes and villain's aggression, this is always a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why in general? And especially why OOP?

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Guido

There are things you have to understand. You say that BB is pushing everybody around so we can assume that his handrange is pretty wide in Battle of the blinds. You also say that the reason why you checkraise is that you know he will bet the turn if you call the flop. You have to understand that this is really really bad. If you know he bet the turn if you call the flop you shall call the flop because you are favourite over his handrange. In this spot versus this aggressive opponent A8s is a perfect hand for using a passive line and check-call both flop and turn.

Anyway, As played I would probably push the turn. He cannot put you on a flushdraw so he has to give you credit for a good hand, If he opts to call you know that you have outs.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Hi jk3a,

I'm hoping to hit an 8 with maybe 1 overcard and everything that's better or a good draw.

I'm not planning to fold when I improve, that totally depends on the amount he bets and how I improve.

You talk about calling the flop and reevaluating on the turn. There is nothing to reevaluate on the turn unless you improve a lot, probably only an 8 or A. He's going to bet. He bets $75 on the flop, you call and the pot is $225. He will bet at least $125 on the turn, now why call the flop when you know this?

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Hi Tupacia,

See my reply to jk3a.

Thanks,

Guido

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi jk3a,

I'm hoping to hit an 8 with maybe 1 overcard and everything that's better or a good draw.

I'm not planning to fold when I improve, that totally depends on the amount he bets and how I improve.

You talk about calling the flop and reevaluating on the turn. There is nothing to reevaluate on the turn unless you improve a lot, probably only an 8 or A. He's going to bet. He bets $75 on the flop, you call and the pot is $225. He will bet at least $125 on the turn, now why call the flop when you know this?

Thanks,

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]

Guido, it's called playing poker. If villian is betting anything, and he keeps betting no matter what, they obviously you can make thin calls. If he isn't then whether and how much he bets gives you info. It's not an easy hand OOP but the c/r plan is just like playing the hand as a bluff.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

op - heres a plan: try to get to showdown and dont toss your stack in like you have the best hand all the time. Usually all you have is a bluff catcher.

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

Did he 3bet to 38 total? (as in, a min-reraise?)

Also, I would probably check/call flop check/call this specific turn and check/evaluate on the river (maybe bet a heart or club + a few more rivers). This way you allow him to bluff while still keeping the pot relatively small

Re: Blind battle, easy fold on the turn?
 

if he really is so agressive that he will keep betting every street then just check/call down if you think you're ahead of his range. if you're not ahead of his range or you don't like variance then check/fold flop.