Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

linky, linky

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

I really, really, really look forward to being able to buy Antiguan-made Mickey Mouse products and keep them as souvenirs of this ridiculous time in our history [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Hopefully the U.S will actually comply with the Europeans and WTO.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Another Good sign for US.
great post.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Yay. This needs to happen.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

I don't see why we all dont just move there. I mean seriously, legal gambling and beaches. Why the hell am I still living here?

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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Yay. This needs to happen.

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Make it so.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Do you guys seriously think that the bozo in the White House and his fascist minions give a damn about the WTO? Hell, they don't care what the UN or anybody else in the world thinks about us.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

With the US seeking WTO judgements against China, it stands to reason that we may have to accept a small bitter pill to win a larger war.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Sure they do, if sanctions are brought that can hurt politically important states/industries. Recall the steel tariffs.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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With the US seeking WTO judgements against China and Russia , it stands to reason that we may have to accept a small bitter pill to win a larger war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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With the US seeking WTO judgements against China, it stands to reason that we may have to accept a small bitter pill to win a larger war.

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Can you give some details or a link please. I ask, because you make a good point. (With all the crap in here lately, I gotta see to believe though)

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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With the US seeking WTO judgements against China and Russia , it stands to reason that we may have to accept a small bitter pill to win a larger war.

[/ QUOTE ]

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It can be done pretty quietly too by rewriting the regulations and maybe even do what Italy did and try to get a cut from the companies. After all, money is involved here and could be enough to get past the 'morality' of it (I don't know how state lotteries and horse racing are any more or less moral though.) [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

because betting on a horse that gets beating by a midget is alot funnier then phil helmuth ranting at an internet satellite winner for playing a dumb hand. To me they are the same thing, but to someone like dubyah...

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

"A WTO panel will decide in November whether the US is now complying with its rules."

We may not have to wait long for some good news on this front.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys seriously think that the bozo in the White House and his fascist minions give a damn about the WTO? Hell, they don't care what the UN or anybody else in the world thinks about us.

[/ QUOTE ]
Billions of dollars in tariffs on U.S. exports to Europe might get their attention. That's the potential penalty if the Europeans file a case and we lose.

Unhappy poker players don't matter in Washington. Thousands of lost jobs however make a much bigger impression and just in time for the 2008 elections [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].

Actually the Antiguan case has undoubtedly cost us far more than our foolish politicians realize. The psychological power of the WTO to lower barriers to U.S. exports is of enormous importance. By humiliating the WTO as we have, we've undermined their prestige and made it easier for other countries to create and maintain their own trade barriers.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

From everything I've read so far, including comments from an attorney working for the Antiguan Govt., it seems that this was done to help the B&Ms in Vegas. Stage 1 is to topple the outside sites. The next stage is to develop a homegrown online establishment.

The attorney made it clear that when they were lobbying in DC they deliberarely did not talk to the NV senators. The fact that says it means a lot.

Something smells rotten in Denmark and twice as bad in Vegas, and its not (yet) Frist's carcass. I don't trust the AGA's motives in all this.

I realize that poker players may not care where they get to play poker as long as they can play .... but come on guys .... this is a truly disgusting Govt. if this game plan is true. I am increasingly inclined to believe it is.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Anybody know when the U.S./Antigua WTO hearing is? They mention November.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

While I'm sure this isn't the only WTO judgement the US is seeking against China, it's the first one that came up on an internet search:
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/displa...38bpuh0.9393274

The US (especially the entertainment industry) has also long complained that China's treatment of intellectual property/copyrighted materials is not in compliance.

Anyways, as I said, it stands to reason that if we want help from the WTO on these issues (and apparently we still do), we should have to accept some things that are unfavorable to us. As said in the thread, November could be very interesting, especially if the UK gets involved.

We shall see how this plays out.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Why isnt this thread larger? this could be the redemption we have been hoping for, and noone is seeing it?

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

If it came down to it, Bush would just say that Antigua was developing weapons of mass destruction, and bomb the [censored] out of them.

"They supports gambling and corruption, and is a sponsor for TERR'. TERR'ists wants the hard working american soccer moms to gamble away their kid's college fund so that amer'cans childrens wont grow up with a edgeecation!"

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barro...n/index_en.htm

Peter Mandelson's website. Incl contact options. This is the guy who will be taking on the US over this. The guardian article says that the EU firms have not complained formally yet. It will strengthen his hand if US consumers complain about this - in particular the higher rake of B&M casinos. Make it clear that you want to use EU based firms (poker and sports betting)and that you believe this bill is protectionism in breach of WTO.

EU based affiliates may want to ask about registering a complaint as effectively you are locked out of the US market.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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Hopefully the U.S will actually comply with the Europeans and WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely skeptical about a WTO decision carrying any weight for the US. Ask Canada how effective it is to win trade rulings (see softwood lumber). Canada won about eleventy billion rulings in a row and the US just told them to stick it anyway. It helped that the current Canadian government was/is spineless beyond description but the point remains.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WTO cavalry to bail me out.

Tony

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

I think further action in the WTO could conceiveably help keep the U.S. from really getting going on drawing out the specifics of the bank regulations, etc and from prosecuting anybody about it.


It could also encourage more sites to just 'keep on, keepin on' as far as pursuing U.S. customers.
Party might back out now...but perhaps they would be willing to accept Americans again due to further WTO action. Knowing that they have the WTO decision on their side could make a big difference in stuff like that.

If it doesn't make a difference with Party it could still end up making a difference with some other sites who otherwise might pull out like FullTilt perhaps.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

This is interesting. Practical question related to the idea that "the U.S. won't care about the WTO ruling"-

How do the countries involved interact with other countries when in one of these WTO disputes, especially the major countries (I think we know where Antigua stands)?

In other words, if the WTO rules against the U.S., but the U.S. refuses to change the law (or hasn't changed it yet), which will the UK authorities view as the final word on how its gambling businesses should deal with U.S. customers: the WTO ruling or U.S. law? I don't know the circumstances of US-China or US-Russia disputes, but when the U.S. is in a similar position (Chinese law violates WTO ruling, Chinese refuse to change law), would the U.S. sanction American citizens breaking Chinese law (from U.S. soil)/refuse to cooperate with Chinese authorities? What if the opponent were someone more friendly, like the U.K.?

Knowledgable/researched opinions only please!

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully the U.S will actually comply with the Europeans and WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely skeptical about a WTO decision carrying any weight for the US. Ask Canada how effective it is to win trade rulings (see softwood lumber). Canada won about eleventy billion rulings in a row and the US just told them to stick it anyway. It helped that the current Canadian government was/is spineless beyond description but the point remains.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WTO cavalry to bail me out.

Tony

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I'm bewildered that this WTO crap keeps coming up over and over; there's got to be a lot of naive youngsters here or ppl from outside the U.S. to go on and on about this pipedream. 99% of the U.S. public has no idea what the WTO is, cares what it is or even cares that it exists.

Regardless of the merits, justifications or anything else, as a practical matter the U.S. is not going to have country-wide gambling imposed on it by the WTO. A U.S. politician trying to explain to the electorate that we must gamble because the WTO said so would be crucified.

WTO may mean something where you live, it means nothing here. Forget the WTO.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Cliffnotes?

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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By humiliating the WTO as we have, we've undermined their prestige and made it easier for other countries to create and maintain their own trade barriers.


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Excellent point. Bush administration did the same thing to the UN when they invaded Iraq, but they still try to use the UN when it still suits their purposes. Now it's the same thing with the WTO. I wonder how much damage is actually done... No wonder much of the world thinks USA are arrogant bullies...

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

Oh yeah, and let's not forget about international tribunals either. Use 'em against the bad guys from other countries but don't you dare suggest that it should apply to Americans.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

I am an american but i must say i cant wait to see the US get knocked on its ass...Its like we need to be reminded that we are just 1 nation and not the world

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully the U.S will actually comply with the Europeans and WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely skeptical about a WTO decision carrying any weight for the US. Ask Canada how effective it is to win trade rulings (see softwood lumber). Canada won about eleventy billion rulings in a row and the US just told them to stick it anyway. It helped that the current Canadian government was/is spineless beyond description but the point remains.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WTO cavalry to bail me out.

Tony

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bewildered that this WTO crap keeps coming up over and over; there's got to be a lot of naive youngsters here or ppl from outside the U.S. to go on and on about this pipedream. 99% of the U.S. public has no idea what the WTO is, cares what it is or even cares that it exists.

Regardless of the merits, justifications or anything else, as a practical matter the U.S. is not going to have country-wide gambling imposed on it by the WTO. A U.S. politician trying to explain to the electorate that we must gamble because the WTO said so would be crucified.

WTO may mean something where you live, it means nothing here. Forget the WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

a) It means something because the U.S. tries to have it mean something when it wants things from other countries.

b) Repealing the internet gambling ban to comply with the WTO (as a part of some larger backroom trade deal) would not ever have to be explained by any politician to anyone unless it suited their interests. Most laws are passed without publicity, politicians select which soundbites they want to campaign on.

c) It wouldn't matter, as a practical matter, if the U.S. ignores the WTO, if the WTO ruling would effectively nullify the law internationally. The biggest dangers are sites shutting their doors and the general public believing online poker is illegal. If the sites have a WTO ruling behind them, can be vocal and clear about the failure of the U.S. government to live up to its international obligations in passing this law, and can provide payment mechanisms that work around the law, things look pretty good.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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It will strengthen his hand if US consumers complain about this - in particular the higher rake of B&M casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who would US consumers complain to in this case?

I'm one whiny bastard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully the U.S will actually comply with the Europeans and WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely skeptical about a WTO decision carrying any weight for the US. Ask Canada how effective it is to win trade rulings (see softwood lumber). Canada won about eleventy billion rulings in a row and the US just told them to stick it anyway. It helped that the current Canadian government was/is spineless beyond description but the point remains.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WTO cavalry to bail me out.

Tony

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bewildered that this WTO crap keeps coming up over and over; there's got to be a lot of naive youngsters here or ppl from outside the U.S. to go on and on about this pipedream. 99% of the U.S. public has no idea what the WTO is, cares what it is or even cares that it exists.

Regardless of the merits, justifications or anything else, as a practical matter the U.S. is not going to have country-wide gambling imposed on it by the WTO. A U.S. politician trying to explain to the electorate that we must gamble because the WTO said so would be crucified.

WTO may mean something where you live, it means nothing here. Forget the WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It meant something to the U.S. in this instance (among others btw):

Bush Ditches Steel Import Duties

From the article:

President George W Bush has repealed US tariffs on imported steel to avoid a damaging trade war.

The decision follows a World Trade Organisation decision that the duties, imposed in March 2002, are illegal.


The issue isn't about having the WTO impose gambling across the U.S. The issue involves U.S. protectionism regarding the Horse Racing industry where the U.S. is allowing gambling via the internet but showing preference to a particular industry. My understanding is that the new law does address horse racing via the internet indicating that the legal status of horse racing via the internet is indeterminate. My understanding is that the legality of making bets on horse races has been upheld in the courts but not sure. Anyway as you can see from the article if organizations like the EU takes up the cause for companies that are in countries that are part of their organization, then the U.S. may be forced to do something. The threat of EU sanctions does have an effect on the U.S. Whether or not the EU would enjoin a place like Antigua is something I really have no idea about it's liklihood.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

On a side note can someone please explain this to me:

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PartyGaming, which has been forced to renegotiate its loan facility as a result of the US legislation, is also hoping to take over smaller rival Gamesys, which has all its customers in the UK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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Do you guys seriously think that the bozo in the White House and his fascist minions give a damn about the WTO? Hell, they don't care what the UN or anybody else in the world thinks about us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well they probably will care when the EU et al slaps the sanctions on them, they can and will get tough on this, not so much to force US capitulation on poker but as part of the overall negotiations. The EU might only use it as a bargaining chip at the end but they will use this most blatant breach as a stick to beat the US. In terms of timescales we are talking years (1-3) but just because it's a runner runner doesnt mean you should discount it. Frankly given the pessimism that US legislators will ever give ground on this despite domestic pressure maybe your best option is to let them say WTO made us do this we don't like it, individual states can still choose to ban all gambling but that's down to them. Giving the legislators an excuse that concessions here are needed to get US goods and services into foreign markets may be the only way.

You are better off lobbying the WTO to protect your consumer rights to do business with the EU than say beating up the PPA or attacking Poker celebs for not doing more.

Don't believe the WTO has teeth? This is from Feb

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/13/business/wto.php

$4bn of sanctions for giving US companies tax breaks, they'll get permission for more than that for locking companies out from a $12bn a year business. As the article shows the US phased out the tax breaks in question (sneaking in others) but this is so blatant such delaying tactics to complicate the debate will not work for them. The bill is too draconian for that.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully the U.S will actually comply with the Europeans and WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely skeptical about a WTO decision carrying any weight for the US. Ask Canada how effective it is to win trade rulings (see softwood lumber). Canada won about eleventy billion rulings in a row and the US just told them to stick it anyway. It helped that the current Canadian government was/is spineless beyond description but the point remains.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WTO cavalry to bail me out.

Tony

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bewildered that this WTO crap keeps coming up over and over; there's got to be a lot of naive youngsters here or ppl from outside the U.S. to go on and on about this pipedream. 99% of the U.S. public has no idea what the WTO is, cares what it is or even cares that it exists.

Regardless of the merits, justifications or anything else, as a practical matter the U.S. is not going to have country-wide gambling imposed on it by the WTO. A U.S. politician trying to explain to the electorate that we must gamble because the WTO said so would be crucified.

WTO may mean something where you live, it means nothing here. Forget the WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It meant something to the U.S. in this instance (among others btw):

Bush Ditches Steel Import Duties

From the article:

President George W Bush has repealed US tariffs on imported steel to avoid a damaging trade war.

The decision follows a World Trade Organisation decision that the duties, imposed in March 2002, are illegal.


The issue isn't about having the WTO impose gambling across the U.S. The issue involves U.S. protectionism regarding the Horse Racing industry where the U.S. is allowing gambling via the internet but showing preference to a particular industry. My understanding is that the new law does address horse racing via the internet indicating that the legal status of horse racing via the internet is indeterminate. My understanding is that the legality of making bets on horse races has been upheld in the courts but not sure. Anyway as you can see from the article if organizations like the EU takes up the cause for companies that are in countries that are part of their organization, then the U.S. may be forced to do something. The threat of EU sanctions does have an effect on the U.S. Whether or not the EU would enjoin a place like Antigua is something I really have no idea about it's liklihood.

[/ QUOTE ]

A damaging trade war concering steel is a lot more likely to get the US into comliance than a terrif on our internet gambling exports. We dont have any internet gambling exports to speak of that would be damaged.

Greg

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

[ QUOTE ]
A damaging trade war concering steel is a lot more likely to get the US into comliance than a terrif on our internet gambling exports. We dont have any internet gambling exports to speak of that would be damaged.

Greg

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The EU wouldn't choose gambling exports they would pick whatever will apply the most pressure (and help EU businesses in other sectors). Top of the list would be Boeing right now, maybe cotton, Microsoft, hey tell them who paid for the bill and they can just add the company to the list for the hell of it. Last time the US tried it on the UK they picked pringle jumpers because their factory is in a marginal seat. These sanctions lists are a dirty business.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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Do you guys seriously think that the bozo in the White House and his fascist minions give a damn about the WTO? Hell, they don't care what the UN or anybody else in the world thinks about us.


[/ QUOTE ]

Usually Lawman gets under my skin, but here, he hit the nail on the head.

If the US ignores the UN about invading Irag, do you really think they give 2 [censored] about the WTO?

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

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Usually Lawman gets under my skin, but here, he hit the nail on the head.

If the US ignores the UN about invading Irag, do you really think they give 2 [censored] about the WTO?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the UN can't impose sanctions on their contributors or key industries in their state. Besides which they cared enough about the UN to send Colin Powell along to lie to them and to make sure that today US troops are working under a new UN mandate.

Re: Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys seriously think that the bozo in the White House and his fascist minions give a damn about the WTO? Hell, they don't care what the UN or anybody else in the world thinks about us.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the WTO starts granting people immunity from American copyright laws, they'll care. Not because they'll care themselves, but because our corporations will get pissed.